If SMiLE had been completed in 1967, who thinks it would have blown Sgt. Pepper out of the water?

They ripped off the bicycle rider riff, to put it bluntly. But I love that track nonetheless.

 

You're failing to take into account George Martin's influence, production and use of classically trained musicians for orchestrations. 'Sgt. Pepper' was hardly just the work of "four great songwriters/musicians." That is not to take anything away from the spectacular Beatles, but you are mischaracterizing 'Sgt. Pepper' which was a very heavily produced record. And your dismissal of the Beach Boys as Brian's songwriting combined with "the greatest studio guys" marginalizes the strong harmonizing vocals of the Beach Boys which is what made them great.

 

On the TAMI Show DVD, Dennis starts out playing the hi hat with the right hand and uses a military (!) grip on the left hand on the snare on "Surfer Girl"

On "Dance Dance Dance", he's playing the ride with his left hand!

 

I don't think Smile ever would have "blown Sgt Pepper out of the water," but certainly it would have had an impact, if...

- Good Vibrations had not been a single, and the LP was the only way to get it
- Better cover. (I know the cover is almost iconic, but as with Pet Sounds, too odd / jokey in terms of attracting buyers.)
- Needs one or two more commercial tunes on it. Smile has no other radio-friendly tunes. Sgt Pepper is filled with catchy tunes. Exchange the lightweight songs like Barnyard, Vegetables for two hits, keep the masterpiece level tunes like Cabinessence, Wonderful, Surf's Up...boom, big album.
- Heroes and Villains simply not that great a track. (Sorry.) Making that the centerpiece I think was part of the problem.

Having that album come out, on time, as above, opening with Our Prayer... I think it would have been noticed.

 

Leeroy Jenkins is the name of a World of Warcraft character that is known for screaming out his name before ignorantly charging headlong into battle, killing everyone in his party. Though the video may have been staged, Leeroy Jenkins was embraced by Blizzard, making several appearances in World of Warcraft products.

 

I'm just going by the documented history that he had little patience for where Smile was going. If he was on tour, weren't the others as well that you just said participated a lot?

 

The band wasn't involved with the instrumental backing sessions with the Wrecking Crew since they were on tour, but they were all very involved in the vocal sessions. Though Mike Love is on record for questioning some of the lyrics (most notably "Cabinessence") and the general weirdness surrounding the sessions, he's also said some favorable things about tracks like "Heroes & Villains" and "Wonderful".

 

No, I went on to say their vocals had a huge impact. And honestly, other than She's Leaving Home, and Within Without You, Pepper had vey little orchestration. But of course I do take George Martin into account.

Pet Sounds is one of my favorite albums of all time, and I appreciate the vocal effort. I also think some members were good enough to contribute. But I'll stick to my desire for any band from the Monkees to U2-that the more the unit contributes, the better the chemistry.

 

I misunderstood you before-I thought you were saying they played more than has been documented. Of course they all participated in the vocal sessions- never doubted that, and as I've said- I enjoy Pet Sounds immensely, much in the way I enjoy Bridge Over Troubled Waters.

 

Just remember, Brian patterned himself after Phil Spector. He used many of Spector's guys to make records. The idea was to make the best record possible, not worry about that some fans will think less of them for it.

 

All the Beach Boys including Mike Love did their best for the SMiLE vocals. I believe the only Beach Boy other than Brian who fully supported the direction that SMiLE was going at the time was Dennis.

 

no I listened to quite a few, but last time I checked, the album wasn't released in 1967. Part of that was of course due to Brian, not everything on it was earth shattering, and I'm sure it was very trying on the band. Again, my reference to the band not participating is from a musician perspective, not vocal perspective.

 

I'm not criticizing the vocal effort. It was actually pretty amazing that they were able to make the 2011 release sound so coherent compared to the boots I had heard over the years.

 

Again, that was Brian's call, not their's. Too, he didn't use them because they weren't good enough, it was because they weren't around. All of this comes down to Brian and the decisions he made recording Smile.

 

No argument there...but let's look at Paul McCartney and another "lost" LP...he liked production but thought Spector was over the top. Without turning this into a Beatle thread other than what the OP is asking- Macca was looking to capture a "band" sound, in the case of Pet Sounds and Smile Brian was trying to make a great record. There's no right or wrong, I'm just defending my vote that personally I think band chemistry wins out in the end.

 

see above...I'm just defending why I voted the way I did. For what it is worth, these days I'm playing Pet Sounds more than Pepper.

 

I don't think Paul had near the fascination with Spector that Brian had with him. Brian patterned his whole production style around Spector, he still does.

 

I have no problem with Mike's band doing Pet Sounds either. But I'm also wise to the fact that at this point-many just want "Catch a Wave".

 

listening to something like

Documented history only suggest Mike asked Van Dyke what two lines of lyrics mean't..... Not a completelty unreasonable thing for the individual who's singing those lines to do.

Otherwise, he showed up and sang as Brian instructed him too.

 

Obviously not with Paul, part sour grapes he wasn't consulted on Let it Be. I still enjoy the Spector version.

I was younger than most Beatle fans and loved glossy production on my AM singles.

 

Yep, it's what made most of the 60's music shine.

 

In the SMiLE Sessions release, on the Our Prayer session, can anyone hear the tension in Mike Love's voice when Brian's talking about tripping on acid?

 

I guess I shouldn't believe everything I read.

This is one of the articles I remember reading which ultimately shows you are right, but from Brian's perspective-Mike is the villain:

At one point in the new documentary film "Beautiful Dreamer: Brian Wilson and the Making of 'Smile,' " Wilson discusses how the other Beach Boys, especially singer Mike Love, reacted to the new directions he and lyricist Van Dyke Parks were attempting in "Smile," the ambitious album that Wilson scrapped.
"Mike did not like 'Smile' at all," Wilson says. "He hated it. He hated it."
In particular, Love objected to the impressionistic lyrics Parks had come up with for Wilson's sophisticated melodic and harmonic experiments on the album and famously grilled Parks for the meaning of one phrase in the song "Surf's Up" that had the group members singing "columnated ruins domino."
"It sure is tedious to have to explain lyrics to people," Parks says in the film.
So what does Mike Love think about the completion of "Smile" four decades later?
"I guess it's a good thing for Brian to do," he said recently. "A friend sent me a copy, but I haven't had time to hear it yet because we've been on tour."
Love, who sings with the latest incarnation of the Beach Boys, is measured in his comments about "Smile" but loosens up a bit when addressing differences he had with Wilson and Parks.

"I did ask them what some of the lyrics meant -- I own up to that part," Love says. "My philosophy of lyrics was always that your audience should be able to relate to them. Some people like to get very artistic and feel no compulsion to write something the fans can identify with, which I guess is fine for them."
As for the scrapping of "Smile," Love says, "a lot of people have blamed me for that over the years. But that was Brian's decision, and no one else's."

 

Brian's not the most trustworthy interview and it always depends on who's with him at the moment.

One time he was asked what his least favorite part of touring was and he answered "going on stage and playing the shows."

Someone off camera goes "that's not true Brian. You love play in the shows." And then Brisn goes "yeah, that's right. I love playing the shows." ))

 

I don't know but it would have been interesting to see what happened if smile was released In 1967