Integrated Tube Amp + Speaker Selection Question

Hi there - first post so please forgive my general lack of form.

I currently have a Project Debut Carbon connected to a Bellari VP130 into a very cheap 5.1AVR. I've been trying to make a final decision on going tube all the way or if my limited budget would be better served buying solid state from here. The reason I'm having the internal discourse is my upgrade to the Bellari from a cheap S/S was so significant, even coming from the cheap 5.1 AVR I have it plugged into. the room size is smaller, maybe 14ftx16ft, 8ft ceilings, hardwoods, but softer furniture. I listen to mostly blues, jazz, and indie/folk rock. I typically listen to my music a little above conversation volumes. I've listed out the pros/cons in my mind. I really enjoy the quality of sound I get from the records, so I guess I would prioritize sound quality and character over volume should the distinction be important

Tube option:
Decware SE34-I + Sonist Audio Recital 3
Pros: preserves the tube character
Cons: Sound quality? will the 6w x 93db/w/m be enough power?

S/S option:
Emotiva XPA-2 & XSP-1 + no speakers selected yet
Pros: versatility on speakers and friendliness toward diverse inputs
Cons: requires serious real estate, doesn't necessarily preserve the tube warmth.

Ultimately, I'm looking for some advice from those who've been down this road themselves and can maybe offer some thoughts/experiences.

Thanks!

 

I cannot attest to the tube vs solid state comparison but I have the Emotiva XPA-100 amps with the UMC-200 pre amps. These power my Martin Logan 40 towers. The sound is superb to my ears and I'm very happy with the volume as well.

 

Greetings and Welcome Seth,
You haven't mentioned what speakers you are using.

You said you are using the TT and phono pre in conjunction with an AVR.

Does that mean you are keeping the AVR for a home theater setup and you are trying to build a dual-purpose set up for music and home theater, or are you building a music only system in a different room?

 

Tubes all the way. Especially since you like listening to blues, jazz, folk.

 

Sorry for the disappearance after posting a question.

I haven't been able to nail down a specific set of speakers for the solid state set-up but my understanding is that the Emotivas will be compatible with a much broader range of speakers than a SET integrated amp so I figured that was a secondary issue once I settled on an amp direction.

With regard to the Decware integrated, its something that is in my price range but I'm open to suggestions for other integrated tube amps also!

I plan on selling the AVR (and the associated 5 speakers and sub once I have the music-only set up going. I haven't turned on the TV since 2012 so I figure there is no point in keeping any of that equipment around. The only thing I do is come home, put on an album, grab a beer, sit down, and close my eyes. So I guess the question can be even more simplified, whats going to bring the music to life more?

For information's sake, the AVR is a DHT-591BA

 

Your two options couldn't be much further apart. From what you've stated I believe you will be much happier with the sound of the Decware. If you get it be sure to opt for the Treasure 6CA7's.

 

Yeah, they're very different tracks entirely. My concern is that once I head down either tube or solid state road, given my limited budget, I'm very committed to that approach.

Appreciate the tip regarding specific tubes, F1nut, there are so many options out there, I'm afraid to even start looking.

Are there any comparables to the Decware in that price range that I should be considering?

 

This is just a suggestion, and you will need to email for price, but I think it will be in that range......shipping is something the email will answer also.
But being OS warranty will be an issue for some, on that if buying a Ming Da amp I would always purchase direct from the factory for genuine. Why do i suggest a ming da amp, i like the build quality at the price... all point to point and good transformers. But a lot is to do with personal preferences in sound, and other things the person wants from any amp.
http://www.mei-xing.com/english/English/cp/1_2a3.html

Mind you this will require efficient speakers @ 3.8w a channel.

My philosophy is speakers first..... and get an amp to suit. And even with very efficient speakers I would want you to sample the 2A3 tube sound first.......somehow

 

That's an interesting point. Without going to a dealer who stocks a lot of tube amps (which I'm not sure of one in the Seattle area), is there a way to get a sense for the various flavors of sound that different manufacturers produce from their parts, tube, and wiring decisions? Or even just the different tubes, under the assumption that parts and wiring schema are a constant?

 

Output tubes do have family sounds.
Searching with something like..... sound of 2A3 tube ....in google will find discussions on different tube types. Here one I got when doing just this.. one the 2A3
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/43752-opinions-300b-vs-2a3-vs-45/

If you could find some members in your area with Single Ended amps.... and have a listen to a few with different types, it would be helpful, and low cost, a few beers

always consider the cost of replacement tubes too, like 300B's can be expensive relatively.

Other parts will have an influence, but what is best looked for IMO... mainly is a tube type you like the general character of, that suits your speakers and use, and has good quality output transformers. Oh, and a good build and circuit, but without knowledge of the differences, you have to ask and also look for makers and amps with a good rep'.

 

If you decide to go with the Decware I would be looking for speakers that are a minimum 95+db sensitive. Decware makes their own speakers, but there is also Parker Audio, Omega, Tekton that are very reasonable. Of course there is also Zu and vintage horn speakers like Klipsch. (and many others!)

There are many other tube integrated amp manufacturers out there that make amps in or around this price range. Also, venturing into the used market can get you substantial savings.

I just got a Decware Torii and couldn't be happier with the Decware sound. I also have a Primaluna Prologue Two which puts out 34 watts and will drive most normal speakers to very loud levels. This type of amp usually be had for around a grand or a little more on the used market. I have the same basic listening preferences as you and def. think you will really enjoy the modern tube sound.

 

Hmm...I was looking for reviews of that amp I linked, seems to be a new one from Ming Da, they have a older pre amp with same naming scheme, and am only finding talk on it.
Ming Da have done a revamp of there product line up it seems, and pricing could be very different to what I thought it could be, I don't know.

Secondly, if like some Ming Da amps it has to be biased from the underside with the bottom off, might be a bit daunting for someone new to tubes.

 

For a moderate sized room, 14ft x 16ft, do you think the max 6w/channel (so maybe 2w/channel normal output) on the Decware isn't enough juice for a 93 db speaker? I've also been looking at the Opera Consonance Reference 5.5 PSE on Adiogon, which puts considerably more wattage to the cables than the Decware. Did you buy your primaluna new? or how did you source it?

A second question I have would be everyone's thoughts on Audiogon and buying used without being able to trial run the unit?

 

It may be enough but I personally would want a little extra headroom for dynamic swings. I should also mention that sensitivity is only one measurment and doesn't necessarily equate to efficiency. I don't know all the science behind it but basically it means that two speakers could both be rated at 93db sensitivity but one could actually be more (or less) efficient and therefore require more or less power. Also, I think speaker's are probably the most important to actually audition if possible as different speakers can have drastically different presentations.

I have had nothing but good experiences with Audiogon ... however, like all used shopping there are some risks. Look at feedback and use PayPal and use common sense and you should be all right.
I bought my Primaluna used from AudioKarma's subscriber's classified's and bought the Decware off from Audiogon.

 

Do you use your primaluna in conjunction with the decware power amp?

 

Nope. I use the Decware without a pre-amp as it has all the functions of an integrated amp. Right now the Primaluna is off duty. May be sold as I only have two systems and 4 integrated amps I'm not a hoarder and don't like having stuff sitting around unused.

 

Well if you want to sell the Primaluna without going through the typical channels, I've been reading about them a few other brands for a better part of the morning and would be happy to take it off your hands for you!

 

Unless you have inefficient speakers or in need of features such as a remote I would not take the Prima Luna over a Decware SE34.I ~ and if that's the case I would look into Line Magnetic or Rogue Audio. A used SE34.I (aka Rachel) should run you around $1200 - $1300 and no preamp is necessary since it's an integrated. For speakers I would look into Decware or Omega that are efficient from about 94dB and up.

 

Beowulf, thank you for the perspective. I'm having an issue finding any used Decware is my issue but I suppose patience is a virtue.

One feature of the Primaluna that is appealing, like the decware, is that it has the ability to internally bias the tubes. On the other side, something like the line magnetic 218IA can run in the a triode or ultra linear mode and the triode mode would be great for the quiet evenings.

If I'm building a music only set up, is there a set up that incorporates the bellari I have currently to keep to costs a little lower? Seems most integrated tube amps have no need for the phono stage. Is that kind of a lost cause?