Is $2500 the point of diminishing returns?

I covered the California Audio Show 7 and THE room that had the "gestalt" experience was the Acapella High Cellini room run by Audio Federation and Acapella's Herman and his wife. That system for me was, If I had the money, the system I would take home - so take price out of these diminishing returns arguments - is THE system, the best system, the system that could do all music at all levels (and insane levels) brilliantly. It helped that they were running top or near top of the line AN transport and DAC which would run well over $100k.

The speakers at $55,000 came off looking like a supreme bargain when you consider the show had considerably more expensive speakers and rooms. The Acapella entire treble range is stunning from the ION Plasma - I liked the high Violoncella a few years back ($80,000) but the High Cellini sounds better is less expensive and one of the only big speakers that has sound cohesive.

Herman played Guns and Roses through his tablet and I played my CD copy via the transport. CD consistently won.
My three runner up rooms were all speakers under $8k - so the thing with diminishing returns perhaps the graph looks a but like a U shape where the first $100 gets you huge returns - no sound to sound. That is very high sound quality to money spent. Then maybe you get to $6k system and you are now at the bottom of the U where money is kind of flat say to $12k where there is a more than decent chance the $6k system may better a bunch of $12k systems but then we see the second rise where very serious money starts to do some things unbelievably well.

So you may find a range of speakers from $5k to $20k where it is quite possible to enjoy the sound of a $5k speaker over a $15k speaker - I sure do. So it is quite possible to say there is high diminishing returns because gee the $15k speaker sounds very marginally better (or worse no better or not as good) as the $5k speaker.

But then you hear a $55k High Cellini or something like that to you and it is very clearly vastly superior to all the speakers in the $5k to $15k range that you have heard. Some relatively minor sonic differences between the speakers ranging from $5k to $15k but a trans-formative experience with the $55k speakers. Now returns are no longer diminished but the return is Ferrari level handling versus minivan level handling. The $5k "minivan" is great and then the $15k version is like the fully loaded minivan with all the fixing and improved handling - but it's not Ferrari level handling - for that requires serious money.

Just some devil's advocate spit balling.

 

$2500 for a SYSTEM??

That's a crazy assertion. I have an expensive system but I also have an English degree.

That's just silly.

 

Axiom M60 $1590
Yamaha A-S801 $900
Apple iPod Touch (streaming and downloaded files) $300

Total $2790. Close. I could swap the M60’s for the M5HP standmounts but I’d eventually have to buy a subwoofer and go over $2500 anyway

 

For a small room maybe $2500 is right. For a larger room, that number is at least triple. I know I moved from an apartment to a house, and my upgraded system went from about a $1800 to over $6000 and it could be improved a bit with a better cartridge and a better phono stage.

 

If I am reading you right, the illusion collapses when the music gets more complex. I've had records that sounded too bright or the vocals overloaded (Claudine Amina Myers' Salute to Bessie Smith on the original Leo label, not the remaster where the piano sounds real but the vocals were too closely mic'd or just beyond the redline) that lost the nasty character as my system improved. But, some records still sound like dreck. Finding music you enjoy that is also well recorded is, to me, a challenge, once you get past the warhorses.

 

I wouldn't spend $2500 on a system. I'd rather spend more on records and CD's. If you take price out of the equation, the most important part is how it sounds to you. One thing you also have to remember, when you hear it in one room, it will sound different in another room due to acoustics.

 

That’s the Catch-22 of audiophilia nervosa, you can listen to good music recorded poorly or you can listen to dull music recorded well.

Naturally this only seems to apply to mainstream pop musics. If you happen to like classical, opera, film scores, jazz, or anthropological field recordings of primitive cultures drum circles then the world is your oyster.

 

What is the difference between a Cellini and a "high" Cellini? I remember the older big speakers, and a few folks who had them--one modified the hell out of them.
The kicker is it isn't "just" the 55k for the speaker- it's the associated gear that really makes them shine and that's when we get into rich man's territory. (Not that I'm against any of that, just saying the price of the speaker is only part of the equation to achieve nirvana).
The trick, to me, is using something like that as a benchmark, how close can you get without writing out that Ferrari priced check? For what it's worth, I owed quite a few Ferraris over a period of years in my life and the one that was the most fun to drive was an older, less expensive one that required far more effort on the part of the driver. One thing I discovered in the process was that you could achieve a similar level of performance and handling with the right older Porsche, if you had it set up right, at far less expense. I like Audio Federation- they helped me out once even though I hadn't purchased my Lamm gear from them, and they seem to know what they are doing. No punchline here, I guess, other than that for those without the financial wherewithal to fund the truly big ticket gear, the challenge to getting that same magic at a lesser price, whether used, or through substitutes, is always a difficult one. (I'm now a retired pensioner living off my investments, so I'm not buying large anymore).
I will relate an old proverb- I'm sure its been told by different ethnic groups- I first read it as a Yiddish story. A poor man sees a rich man eating blintzes (blinis or crepes often stuffed with cheeses) with great gusto and tells his wife: "I must try these." She scrounges and saves, substitutes, and makes do, having little money to buy the proper ingredients. But, she manages to serve her husband something that resembles a blintze. He digs in, chews thoughtfully, and turns to her: "For the life of me, I don't understand what the rich see in blintzes."

 

Yes, rock for sure, but I found DG, for example, in classical to be great in artists, less good in sonics. And I never loved the Mercury Living Presence, despite all the fanfare about them. For jazz, I guess it depends. Field recordings-not really my thing- I have some old transcriptions of '78s, but for drum circles, that's easy-- they're a dime a dozen in Austin. I never was able to get my head around opera, though I probably still have a few hundred old boxes on quality labels from Europe. The best stuff, to my ears, is simply done, very little "production"--early jazz at the beginning of the stereo era, early pre-prog, proto-metal in the late '60s (e.g. some of the Swirls and European Philips label stuff) psych/folk from the same era on Island pink. The more out of the mainstream, the more interesting it gets musically.

 

Of course you are right - Audiofederation was using Acapella's $100,000 amps and $150,000+ worth of Audio Note RedBook CD and then there are cables.

I think we have the same general idea and my advice for people has always been to listen to the crazy expensive best of the best stereo systems (preferably not at an audio show or at least not JUST at an audio show) and then find whatever system truly amazes you - so if that is the equivalent of a Bentley or a Bughatti - both of these may be viewed at the top or near the top of the car world but neither are the same - they each speak to a different type of car owner but may be equally good at what they are designed to do. So if you are a panel guy you should try and hear the top of the line Soundlab - if a single driver guy maybe the Teresonic Ingenium or Silbatone speakers - horns also the Silbatones or WE speakers.

Then it is about maximizing your budget and effort to try and get as close to the performance as you can get. In your case a Porsche - in my case probably a Mazda Miata because there is only so much cash to go around and stereos for me are way more important than cars. The only reason I have been able to buy the stereo I have purchased is that I've lived in Hong Kong for 6 years where a car is a detriment than a positive so all that car money can go to a stereo.

Frank Cheng on our staff also chose the Acapella and Audio Note rooms as the best sounding rooms. So if I chose the room that would be the "closest" in sound to the Acapella/AN room from AudioFederation it would be the Audio Note room with AN E/Spe He speakers ($7400) which I covered here CAS7 Richard Austen Reports, Part 4

I would also give high marks to the Pure Audio Project Quintett 15 which use eight 15 inch woofers in an open baffle design for $6,900. They were being driven with a 4.2 watts per channel $25,000 Whamerdyne amp. But the speaker price is hugely attractive since they come flat packed in a modular approach so you use an allen key to put it together - they are easy to drive. And while listening I kept thinking - wow this sounds really good but what if you used a really good source? How much better would they be for example if they had the Audio Note source players which just about as good as digital gets.

(Interestinglu the Volti Rival speakers $7900 were also one of my runner ups and is it just coincidence that they too were the only other room using a serious CD transport (CEC belt drive) and a DAC that is a non oversampling design?

This is where I wish I have 4 rooms big enough to support some of this stuff. Still as big and impressive looking as the Pure Audio Project was - the AN E with a single eight inch woofer had every bit the bass and slam for a Guns and Roses if not a little more oomph at higher levels. So one can't always go by the looks.

Still when you factor in the size, looks, very good sound and high efficiency - you have to like those Quintett speakers. In fact I met reviewer Jeremy Kipnis who has a ridiculous Guinness book of World Records $6million home theater system - he liked those Pure Audio Project speakers and took them home after the review to review them. When money is definitely no object, you let this guy build your home theater

So I certainly think there are fantastic speakers out there that get you great sound. I have long been a proponent of the AN E (any and all of them)

Lastly, part of all this comes down to the size of room - In a medium small room for me the AN J and E are about as good as it gets - in a big room you need to look at big speakers - so far that would be the High Cellini and maybe the Pure Audio on a purely sensible budget. Sorry I don't know what you get with the High version of the speakers - it just says upgrades but what is upgraded I don't know. The regular Cellini is $40,000 so the added $15,000 should be a lot! Maybe they tell you in the link somewhere but I don't have time to read through Audio Federation

PS - Jeremy Kipnis may be one of the nicest and most genuine persons I have ever met in audio.

 

I think the OP posed a hypothetical question. The practical question that has been in my mind is "How much do I have to spend to get sound I'll be happy with for another 10 years?"

For me the answer is

near field system in home office: $ 800 for an DAC + powered speakers bought last year.

Main system: I expect to replace the ~ 20 year old 3-way active speakers with 6 channels of amplification (about $ 9000 for speakers and amps) this year. Maybe the replacement will be another pair of HD6s but I'll probably spend $ 2000 on active monitors.

I've been interested in audio for about 50 years. After reading this thread, I decided to listen to a recording that I first heard back then: Rachmaninoff / Symphonic Dances / Johanos / Dallas Symphony Orchestra. An audiophile favorite way back when. It is just as impressive and pleasing on my $ 800 near field system as I've ever heard it in the past.

 

I could easily see myself spending 40 grand building a new quadraphonic system if I had the money to spare

 

Interesting, as I just moved from a large house to a modest sized apartment on the occasion of Hurricane Harvey turning my neighborhood into a lake. I went from big tower speakers to little speakers on stands, but the difference in pricing was negligible. Right now it isn't clear if I/we will ever go back to a house, but a larger flat looks nice to me now. It's a world of reduced sound pressure and no room shaking bass, but the music is still enjoyable.

 

Money can't buy happiness, but it's nice to have lots of it. It seems several of the really outstanding new audio products are powered speakers with DSP. Your B&O's are at the top of the range, but there are modestly priced solutions like the LS50w and Audioengine HD6. There is resistance as part of the hobby is mixing and matching but it is hard to argue with the performance of these integrated units.

 

What's also interesting is that active speakers with DSP are bringing top-end audiophile performance to people who wouldn't otherwise have made the compromises necessary to achieve that performance. I don't have a standalone listening room and I don't have separate hifi and home cinema systems: the BeoLab 90s are my front speakers, with BeoLab 5s as my rears.

Treating the room (42' x 18' and mostly glass on three sides) would be extremely difficult, and I have a 103" TV between the Lab 90s, which is precisely what you don't want from an audiophile perspective. However, DSP can deal with these issues and effectively make the room disappear, though the speakers' designer Geoff Martin has advised me to treat the ceiling. The Lab 90s also mean I can get top-end audiophile performance without snaking cables on risers, a spaghetti junction of wires and racks of power amplifiers cluttering up my sitting room.

 

As proven by many of the defensive responses here. Unfortunately, most "high-end" owners that I know are never satisfied and still chasing the dragon........

 

I think that is a mindset that comes with the territory but doesn't have to be so--at some level, most of us are gear heads in addition to music buffs. But, when the focus is purely on sonics, I think you can always find something that needs to be improved. I've come to the conclusion, at least based on source material, that at a certain level, you are more dependent on the sound quality of the record than the equipment- some stuff just sounds spectacular. Unfortunately, not everything I like is recorded that way.
I think this same mindset --sort of analytical listening--while important in some ways, denies you the pleasure of what you do have. Perhaps my reasoning is circular, but I got off the gear acquisition treadmill a while ago--haven't really changed much, other than updating the phono cartridge periodically, since I put this system into place circa 2006-7. (I did swap out line stage and phono stages several years ago, but speakers, amps, turntable and arm remain unchanged).
For the last number of years, I've spent the money on interesting, sometimes obscure, records, the occasional reissue where the "original" is unobtanium and the "audio nervosa" usually only kicks in when something is profoundly wrong.
I've also had so much fun re-booting a bunch of old equipment I've owned for decades into a second vintage system based on the original Quad ESL and matching tube amps. The thing is so musical you aren't even thinking about the gear-- it is even easier to get lost in the music on that system, and i haven't finished the turntable yet.
I think you can buy astutely at any price range, depending on your preferences and willingness to compromise -the Quads don't do massive bass, but what's there is very tuneful, taut and lively--without feeling like you are missing much. I've seen so many "next hot things" lose flavor of the month status over the years that to me, the trick is to buy something enduring. That may take you into the vintage arena, but much of that stuff can be refurbished.

 

So many people here are talking about a Cornscala. I understand it is a home built combination of Cornwall and La Scala, using some kind of horn-loaded woofer. But, can someone describe exactly what it is, please, and how it differs from a La Scala or Klipschorn?

 

Put the same gas in a 1974 VW Bus and a modern Ferrari. Do they perform the same?
Yes. Materials and design matters!

 

Yeah when I saw 10% (roughly) of the budget spent on the speakers in a $2500 set up, I lost interest in their premise. A $200 laptop and some properly placed Active KEF LS50's ($2200) would blow away the system they set up. Might blow away my $4k system. I had a pair of the Elac UB5's which are $450ish speakers new and higher end than the UB6's they used. To me they sounded significantly worse than my used B&W's I got for $300. And significantly worse than my 40 year old advents. They did image nicely however.

 

Point of diminishing returns may very well be $2,500 for someone looking to spend $500 or $1K more, but jump to even $5K or $10K and heck no, what you can get at that level is far above $2,500.

 

If i had $100K budget and an amazing cathedral-esque dedicated space for listening, i would def spend it on audio.
Music is my life's Passion.

 

To answer the title question. Yes!

 

Haven’t read the whole thread, but I would say yes.

2-3k hits diminishing returns.

CAVEAT: you find out what type of speakers you like (and you don’t mind buying used). Once you figure out the sound you like, the path to satisfaction is easy if you know what to buy

 

It sounds like your head and your heart are in the right place! The musical adventure should be fun and rewarding no matter how much (or little) cash you can put into a system.