Is it just me...(Gaps between songs)

Is it just me...

...or does anybody else get seriously annoyed when mastering engineers mess around with the duration of the gaps between an album's tracks? Admittedly, it usually doesn't make much difference, but there are cases in which the gaps were obviously carefully timed on the original LP, and the CD reissue loses something when that timing is altered. I remember noticing this back in 1987, when Sgt. Pepper made it to CD, but the example that's set me off on my latest rant is the first Suicide LP, from 1977. On the original vinyl, there is a near-segue between tracks four and five--that is, "Johnny" stops cold, there is about a half-second of silence, whereupon "Girl" starts up immediately. The effect is quite arresting, but it's not to be found on any of the CDs I've heard, all of which have the traditional five seconds (or so) between every track. (The current version, released by Mute in 2000, compounds the problem by fading the coda of "Johnny"! Why? Why on Earth?)

While I'm on the subject, why is it that mastering engineers nearly always insist on digitally muting the between-track gaps? If a CD is compiled from multiple tape sources, that's one thing...but if it's being mastered from the original assembly reels, why not just let it roll on through? I'd rather have a bit of hiss between songs than a sudden jump from hissy analog tape to digital silence, then back again. (Of course, either practice is vastly preferable to the noxious habit some engineers exhibit, of digitally "assisting" the fade, so it ends a few seconds earlier than it ought to. To his great credit, I don't think that our Mr. Hoffman has ever been guilty of such a crime, and fortunately, it doesn't seem to happen as often as it used to. Some of the old Columbia Legacy titles were particularly bad...)

--Paul Curtis

 

There wasn't supposed to be a 3 second gap between "Ain't To Proud To Beg" and "It's Only Rock And Roll" on the Stones album of the same name, was there?

On the vinyl, there's no gap....

 

Re: Is it just me...

Paul could you tell me what bugged you about the tracks when Sgt Pepper made it to CD in 1987?? I'm very interested in hearing any and all complaints pertaining to the timing of the gaps or anything else when it comes to this Beatles LP to CD from you.

 

Well, I know that the gaps on the CD of Please Please Me were reduced, because some of them were very long on the vinyl (some actually complained to EMI at the time), but Pepper?

Care to elaborate?



Nobby.

 

Ack. I'm afraid you guys have caught me out: I no longer own an original stereo vinyl of Sgt. Pepper, and it wouldn't really be fair for me to compare the mono vinyl against the stereo CD, as the former may well have different gap lengths than either of the stereo versions (LP or CD). I just remember that back in 1987, I was intimately familiar with the stereo vinyl (from the UK BC13 box), and I distinctly recall being perturbed by the alterations on the CD. If I ever get a chance to perform a proper A-B comparison, I will certainly post the results here.

Sorry!

--Paul Curtis

 

This was done on CDs a lot more in the 80s than now, I think. Problem is, everyone has their own idea of what the best gap lengths are. Sometimes I don't like what was on the original LP, so I fix them to MY liking when I do a vinyl-to-CD-R transfer. Sometimes i'll even crossfade stuff if I like the effect.

I prefer the gaps between songs faded/blackened/silenced/whatever you want to call it. You should know, pecurtis, that many master tapes are "banded", meaning that they used leader tape spliced in between the songs, so there may be no hiss to speak of. And, of course, when the tape is mastered to CD, the engineer is probably going to clean up any irregularities.

Me, if I master a tape that has no leader, unless muting the gap compromises the integrity of the recording, I will silence them. You may do something different.

 

True, though I imagine that there ought to be some residual noise from the tape player electronics, so the drop in the noise floor ought to be a bit less jarring than if it were digitally muted. But I do see your point.

Well, quite--it's just that many engineers are, IMHO, rather overzealous in determining what constitutes an "irregularity"! (Again, Steve H. is a major exception. His Pet Sounds CD is the only one which retains that 16Khz buzz during the choruses of "I Know There's an Answer," which I remember so well from my '80s adolescence...y'see, I've always been horribly anal about this sort of thing! )

Fair enough. Perhaps I was being unnecessarily contentious.

I don't really mind a gradual digital fade at the end of a song, provided that it does not begin until the original signal has disappeared entirely. It still seems to be common practice for engineers to "jump the gun" by a split-second or two.

This reminds me of something else I've been meaning to ask about. On many of my '60s LPs, particularly those from Columbia/Epic and Warner/Reprise, I can hear a tiny, high-pitched, mechanical "plink" sound at the beginning and end of each side. What causes this? Is it a byproduct of the cutting process, or is it inherent to the masters?

--Paul Curtis
All irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension...

 

Re: Is it just me...

That is exactly what bugs me about the Canadian "Who's Next". Somebody in Canada decided to "improve" Steve's re-master by removing the hiss between songs.

 

Re: Is it just me...

Sorry, double post.

 

Re: Re: Is it just me...

I prefer the hiss too - and I've seen mastering engineers (classical music at Deutsche Grammophon) having big tape-hiss archives to fill gaps, because most of their master tapes have white tape between the tracks.

Martin

 

What's worse

I got Paul Simon's Negotiations and Love Songs and a song isn't fully faded before the next track begins. And this is a greatest hits disc. I'll take the moment of silence over an instant barrage of new sound.

 

While I was reading Paul's post, the gap between "Ain't To Beg" and "It's Only Rock And Roll" was the first thing that came to my mind. To this day when I play the CD of "It's Only Rock And Roll" that part irritates the hell out of me!

 

Oh..The Beatles "Abby Road" there should have been a longer gap between "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" and "Here Comes The Sun."
I want to absorb what I just heard after "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" But no, a couple seconds later "Here Comes The Sun."

 

Re: Re: Is it just me...

Unless I'm mistaken, Steve sent MCA Canada an analogue copy of his master. Maybe they saw the lack of leader tape between the songs and thought they should "clean up" ?


Phil

 

on Queen's The Game lp....there was no gap between Dragon Attack and Another One Bites The Dust (well, a really tiny one)....on the DVD-A, it's quite big...kinda kills the effect.

 

Oh- that was the highlight of the album for me

Phil

 

Re: Is it just me...

I'm with you, absolutely.

I've heard albums where if you listen down the fade you can actually hear some print through pre-echo from the upcoming track, then.. 2 seconds of completely un-necessary digital silence.

And yes, there should be a longer pause between what would have been side one and side two of the albums. This really bugs me on Todd Rundgren's "A Wizard/A True Star", especially since side one is sort of a suite. I need some breathing space before the next track begins.


On the other hand, on some classical releases I hear some looped noise inserted between movements, and the looping is obvious enough to be annoying. (Mercury Living Presence comes to mind). Still better than a sudden chop to dead silence, though.

 

The stereo re-mix has that same sound. I thought it was an accident unique to the stereo mix until I heard the DCC disc.

 

Oh man! I HATE that! Well, TBO, it only bothers me if I am familiar with the song the way I originally heard it. On the original RCA 45 of The Main Ingredient's "Everybody Play's The Fool", the songs fades out on the horn section. But, on some CD comps it fades slightly earlier, and it bugs the crap out of me. I bought a LOT of CDs with the song on it until I found the correct 45 version, which is a generation or two down from the master. But, when mastering it for CD, some engineer saw fit to fade out the master a tad early to avoid tape hiss, I suppose.

 

Well, this is the topic of the thread, right????????
OOOFAH!

 

Sorry Dave - I'm up on most abbreviations, except "OOOFAH!". Sorry to be dense, can someone enlighten me please?

In case there is any doubt as to why I posted, I was basically agreeing with you on the short gap between "Dragon Attack" and "Another One Bites The Dust".


EDIT - ah. Looking back at my post with a fresh head on this morning, my post might look as though I was being sarcastic. I was definately >not< being sarcastic - I was being honest! You got my two favourite tracks on that album, and the gap.



Best,
Phil

 

Everybody Plays The Fool

Grant, could you please post the time of the desirable Everybody Plays The Fool? I have it on the Time Life collection and it's over at 3:16. Did you know Cuba Gooding Junior's father is the lead singer on that record? Thank you.

 

Oooofah is just a way of saying "I'm frustrated".....I think it's an old New York's Little Italy term.

No problem....sorry....everyone last night needed a good laxative...there was no humour on the board...then I saw your post and my head exploded!

If you listen to the DVD-A, you will see how, after being so used to the short gap, it really does kill the feel of the two songs.

 

No worries Dave.

Let's declare this air offically cleared

Best regards, and mind the gap.

Phil

 

Re: Everybody Plays The Fool

The full-length single is 3:22. It is on the "All Time Greatest Hits" CD on RCA, released in 1989. It may also be on their more current CD comp on Collectables.