Jill Gibson's vocals on the 2nd Mamas and Papas LP

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by johnsmusicbox, Mar 6, 2009.

  1. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    I just want to know if Jill is on John's Music Box or Frustration. Is that her saying "Fuera" (or whatever-the-hell they are sayin there)?:D
     
  2. MikeP5877

    MikeP5877 Uh Huh

    Location:
    Northeast Ohio
  3. Well, Richard cleared up a lot of the mystery, but some of it is a little confusing and there are still a few unanswered questions which I am waiting to hear back on...



    "This is from my notes and those of Greg Russo. Also, at the end of the notes/commentary, I have included part of the group’s Sessionography from 1966 which should help with this mystery.

    By the way, I was wrong about “Look Through My Window” as it was recorded in September 1966 after Michelle was back in the group. I appreciate your agreeing with me Chris, but maybe the fact that it sounds like Jill to us, makes Michelle's point that it's impossible to tell.

    I also forgot that Henry Lewy, not Bones Howe, engineered the tracks with Michelle in August 1966.

    This research is based on actual session sheets.

    First and foremost: Michelle was fired on June 28, 1966 and reinstated on August 23, 1966. Once Jill joined the group, they went to London for a week. So her actual time with the group really was brief.

    Dunhill released “I Saw Her Again” b/w “Even If I Could” in late June to hold things over.

    The first studio session with Jill on board took place on July 5, at which the revised backing track of “No Salt On Her Tail” was recorded.

    On July 8, John’s song “Gypsy” (which became “Dancing Bear”) was started.

    On July 15, Jill replaced Michelle’s vocal on “Even If I Could.”

    During the last week of July, “That Kind Of Girl,” “Did You Ever Want To Cry” and “Strange Young Girls” were committed to tape along with some orchestration on “Dancing Bear.”

    John’s song “Did You Ever Want To Cry” was sung by Cass, but it would be shelved until the end of November for further work.

    The Mamas & The Papas recorded their vocals to “Strange Young Girls,” “No Salt On Her Tail” and “I Can’t Wait” in early August after the keyboard, bass and drum tracks were redone on the last two songs.

    Re-recording was also done on “Trip, Stumble And Fall” during that session, although the vocals were not touched.

    Once Michelle was back in the group, in three separate three-hour sessions, Michelle had to re-record as many of Jill Gibson’s parts as she could, and the first one was “Dancing In The Street.”

    The studio musicians and John, Cass and Denny re-recorded whatever parts were necessary to make everything sound homogenous. Henry Lewy engineered these recordings.

    When Greg and I worked on this we concluded that Michelle was not on a third of the final album. Even though she and John had written “Trip, Stumble And Fall,” Jill Gibson’s vocal was on the final track because time to complete the LP had run out. The other tracks that did not feature Michelle were “I Can’t Wait,” “Dancing Bear” and the LP version of “Even If I Could.”


    Trip, Stumble And Fall (04/25/66, 07/05/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
    Even If I Could (04/25/66, 07/15/66 [with Jill Gibson])
    Dancing In The Street (04/25/66, 08/23/66)
    Words Of Love (04/26/66, 11/09/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])
    I Saw Her Again (04/26/66, 04/27/66)
    Once Was A Time I Thought (04/28/66)
    Here In My Arms (04/28/66)
    No Salt On Her Tail (04/28/66, 08/23/66 [new backing track], 08/24/66)
    I Can’t Wait (07/06/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/02/66 [bass, drums and keyboards replaced])
    Dancing Bear (07/08/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/27/66)
    That Kind Of Girl (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/23/66 [new backing track with Michelle’s vocal])
    Did You Ever Want To Cry (07/24/66 [with Jill Gibson], 07/26/66 [new backing track], 11/29/66 [new backing track])
    Strange Young Girls (07/31/66 [with Jill Gibson], 08/03/66 [new backing track], 08/23/66 [Michelle’s vocal])
    My Heart Stood Still (08/23/66, 08/24/66)
    Look Through My Window (09/24/66; 09/28/66 [orchestration by Marty Paich])"
     
  4. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    Amazing work there.

    So, it's six tracks on the album proper (for Jill) + "Did You Ever Want To Cry." Correct?

    And six tracks for Michelle on the album + "Look Through My Window"...Si?

    (Plus the Rogers and Hart TV cut)


    BTW, on a related note, I'd love to know if that promo film of "I Saw Her Again" was ever shown on any American TV program at the time. Perhaps Richard might know?


    EDIT: Or, did I count incorrectly? Actually 7 for Michelle...5 for Jill on the album proper. Or, 8...4???
     
  5. Great thread. If only a member had one of those rare promotional 2nd albums sent to the various radio stations. I would think it would be pretty easy to compare that record to the final released album and know for sure which songs Jill sang on.
     
  6. He just posted a tv appearance list, but it must be incomplete because it doesn't list the show they were on with Jill, which we have a picture of. Anyway, here it is...

    Group’s Televisiongraphy—by Richard Campbell and Greg Russo

    TELEVISION APPEARANCES

    “Shindig!” (ABC-TV; first aired 12/11/65. Filmed at ABC Studios, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “I Call Your Name (acoustic version),” “Somebody Groovy” (live vocals over backing track), “California Dreamin’” (lip-synch), “Yesterday” (backing vocals for Barry McGuire; live vocals over backing track), “Do You Believe In Magic” (backing vocals for Barry McGuire; live vocals over backing track), “You’ve Got To Hide Your Love Away” (backing vocals for Barry McGuire; live vocals over backing track) and “Hang On Sloopy” (backing vocals for Barry McGuire; live vocals over backing track).

    “Shivaree” (ABC-TV; first aired 12/25/65. Filmed at KABC Studios, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “California Dreamin’” and “Somebody Groovy” (the latter running over the end credits).

    “Hollywood Palace” (ABC-TV; first aired 01/29/66. Repeated on 07/30/66. Filmed at The Hollywood Palace, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “California Dreamin’” (lip-synch) and “Be My Valentine” (the latter with the group singing live backup to Arthur Godfrey).

    “Where The Action Is” (ABC-TV; first aired 03/10/66. Filmed at ABC Studios, San Diego, CA). Songs performed: “Monday, Monday” and “California Dreamin’.”

    “Hullabaloo” (NBC-TV; first aired 03/14/66. Repeated 08/08/66. Filmed at NBC Studios, Brooklyn, NY). Songs performed: “California Dreamin’,” “Nowhere Man” (part of a medley with other groups) and “Daydream” (The Mamas & The Papas sing one line of a verse in this ensemble version with Gary Lewis & The Playboys, Dionne Warwick, Bobby Rydell and Noel Harrison).

    “The Lloyd Thaxton Show” (KCOP-TV, Hollywood; first aired 03/66. Filmed at KCOP-TV Studios, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “Monday, Monday” and “California Dreamin’.”

    “American Bandstand” (ABC-TV; first aired 03/19/66. Filmed at ABC Studios, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “California Dreamin’.”

    “Where The Action Is” (ABC-TV; first aired 04/07/66. Filmed at ABC Studios, San Diego, CA). Songs performed: “I Call Your Name” and “California Dreamin’.”

    “Hollywood Palace” (ABC-TV; first aired 04/09/66. Filmed at The Hollywood Palace, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “Monday, Monday.”

    “Hollywood Palace” (ABC-TV; first aired 09/17/66. Filmed at The Hollywood Palace, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “Dancing Bear” and “Dancing In The Street.”

    “Where The Action Is” (ABC-TV; first aired 09/29/66. Filmed at ABC Studios, San Diego, CA). Songs performed: “Monday, Monday” and “Got A Feelin’.”

    “The Ed Sullivan Show” (CBS-TV; first aired 12/11/66. Filmed at CBS Studios, New York, NY). Songs performed: “Monday, Monday,” “California Dreamin’” and “Words Of Love.”

    “The Songmakers” (ABC-TV; first aired 02/24/67. Filmed at Western Recorders, Studio 3, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “Boys & Girls Together” (studio recording session from 12/01/66).

    “Rodgers And Hart Today” (ABC-TV; first aired 03/02/67. Repeated 05/11/67. Filmed at ABC Studios, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “My Heart Stood Still,” “Glad To Be Unhappy,” “Here In My Arms” and “Sing For Your Supper.”

    “The Ed Sullivan Show” (CBS-TV; first aired 06/11/67. Filmed at CBS Studios, New York, NY). Songs performed: “Creeque Alley” and “Dedicated To The One I Love.”

    “The Ed Sullivan Show” (CBS-TV; first aired 09/24/67. Repeated 07/14/68. Filmed at CBS Studios, New York, NY). Songs performed: “Twelve Thirty (Young Girls Are Coming To The Canyon),” “California Dreamin’,” “I Call Your Name” and “Monday, Monday.”




    David, you should come on over to Richard's forum at http://www.casselliot.com/forum/ . He'll generally answer questions if he's not too busy at the time.
     
  7. Oh, and I directed Jill to this thread. She seems to be a fairly busy person however, so whether or not she makes it over here, just have to wait and see.
     
  8. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    Okay...disregard my previous attempt at counting...lol.

    Is this the bottom line then?

    Michelle: (8 album proper + 2)

    Dancing In The Street
    Words Of Love
    I Saw Her Again
    Once Was A Time I Thought
    No Salt On Her Tail
    My Heart Stood Still
    Strange Young Girls
    That Kind Of Girl

    Here In My Arms
    Look Through My Window



    Jill: (4 album proper + 1)

    Trip, Stumble And Fall
    Even If I Could
    I Can’t Wait
    Dancing Bear

    Did You Ever Want To Cry
     
  9. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio

    I just may do that, Chris. This whole thing has whetted my appetite for the band again!

    So, as far as we know, the "I Saw Her Again" promo film *only* ran on Top Of The Pops -- at least in terms of the US & UK -- on August 18, 1966?
    (Though, it was also repeated on Sept. 8th on the same series.)
     
  10. lukpac

    lukpac Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison, WI
    Whoa...the 45 and LP versions of Even If I Could have different vocals? Has this been confirmed?
     
  11. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    Yeah...I missed that part of the session summary.

    The mono LP mix (which as I recall is the exact same as the 45) doesn't have the "response line" female vocals that the stereo does on part of the verses. Is it possible that Jill only did *those* lines (w/ Cass) on the stereo LP mix. Or, was it a complete overhaul?

    Mono mix (my vinyl - transferred my Luke):

    http://lukpac.org/~dave/Even If I Could mono.mp3
     
  12. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
  13. Drawer L

    Drawer L New Member

    Location:
    Long Island
    The "I Saw Her Again" is on a LEGIT DVD,released by Universal in Holland--don't have my copy handy,so I don't remember the title (I'm pretty sure the title is Dutch for '40 Golden Hits'--some great and RARE stuff on here!!!)--By the way the footage from the ISHA promo has popped up in various documenteries--you know the b&w film of each of the M&Ps,pulling up in their cars & going into a shop??--That's it...
     
  14. Drawer L

    Drawer L New Member

    Location:
    Long Island
    Wow.If that's it,the only ones I don't have are Lloyd Thaxton (which,most likely doesn't exsist...) & 'The Songmakers'....
     
  15. bekayne

    bekayne Forum Resident

    What show (and when) is this picture from?

     
  16. Larry Geller

    Larry Geller Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bayside, NY
    “Hollywood Palace” (ABC-TV; first aired 09/17/66. Filmed at The Hollywood Palace, Hollywood, CA). Songs performed: “Dancing Bear” and “Dancing In The Street” would be my guess.
     
  17. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    That would be my guess too, because:

    A) The light bulbs behind were part of the standard Hollywood Palace set and...

    B) HP was usually taped roughly 4-5 weeks in advance, which would lock in with the (now known) time frame. For example, when Margaret Dumont did her final TV appearance with Groucho on the show, and it aired after her death.
     
  18. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio

    Then again, maybe not. I forgot that this was on the documentary comp. (w/ Michelle):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4zkF6XaWgI


    Those "Hollywood Palace" light bulbs do look the same though.
    (see approx. 3:30 of the YouTube clip w/ Michelle - and compare the above photo with Jill)
     
  19. Drawer L

    Drawer L New Member

    Location:
    Long Island
    I would guess Hollywood Palace as well,but it's DEFINATLY NOT the 9/17/66 episode with "Dancing Bear"/"Dancing In The Street"--I have that.--that one is Michelle.--Bing Crosby was the host,and he says "they have a new album coming soon called Running,Jumping,Standing Still"
     
  20. David R. Modny

    David R. Modny Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Parma, Ohio
    What makes it even stranger is that the 9/17 episode with Michelle was the **season premiere** (and the previous season wouldn't have even come into play).

    Thus, I'm wondering if that photo with Jill was strictly a promo shot on the set to promote their appearance before they actually taped it in August. Or, perhaps there was a segment shot in the summer with Jill that they simply scrapped or re-did. That is, the air date taping would've occurred right around the 8/23 switchover between the two of them (i.e. HP usually taped their shows roughly four weeks in advance).

    Those light bulbs are unmistakable though in the Jill photo. It's basically the left pillar of the Hollywood Palace set.

    This is one of those moments where Jill's recollections (here) would be invaluable.
     
  21. bekayne

    bekayne Forum Resident

    I think that would be the likeliest scenario.
     
  22. Drawer L

    Drawer L New Member

    Location:
    Long Island
    OPPS!--I meant Crashon Screamon All Fall Down(While thinking of the Richard Lester film...)
     
  23. Drawer L

    Drawer L New Member

    Location:
    Long Island
    That's most likely what happened....The reel I have is just about all of the M&Ps TV appearences,(it was compiled while doing research for one of the documentaries-probally Straight Shooter)-that would explain why it has all the other H'wood Palaces,but not that one....
     
  24. DoctorDave

    DoctorDave Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ohio
    This thread has really intrigued me, so I pulled out the Mamas & Papas "Anthology" set and listened to every song from beginning to end over the past couple of days.

    While I never really noticed it before, the vocals on many of the tracks on the second album DO sound different than Michelle. The female voice (other than Cass) does have a slightly lower register, different phrasing, and just a different "sound". It's close enough to Michelle to pass on casual listening, but when you really dig into it, you can hear the difference.

    I was also very surprised by "People Like Us". I remember buying that album a long time ago, and being pretty disappointed in it right from the start. It went back on the shelf, and I've only selectively listened to it once or twice since. Listening to it again now, I'm struck by the almost total lack of Cass vocals. Somewhere earlier in this thread someone mentioned that Cass refused to sing on the album......and I believe it! There may a small harmony bit here or there, but mostly it sounds like Michelle double-tracked her vocals and did Cass's part as well. It's amazing to me how I didn't pickup on this when I first got the album. That's the kind of thing that makes this forum so valuable.
     

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