Keeping SACD as a "Dedicated 'High End Audiophile' Format

I for one would prefer to see SACD evolve as a dedicated "Audiophile" format served by mainly smaller Audiophile oriented labels to whom utmost sound quality is the main objective. These would be "no compromise" discs and although we may not get as many recordings as in the mass market approach taken by the majors, we would get the best possible sound of each title.

Don't get me wrong, I think DVD-A properly implemented is probably just as good but it seems that the market DVD-A is going for is the far broader A/V one and therefore compromise in the audiophile sense is inevitable. A lot of titles will be produced with the average DVD player/AV system in mind insofar as how they are mixed and concerning such things as true (or lack of)dedicated stereo mixes.

If, SACD does indeed become a niche "audiophile" format I believe that after a period of time even the labels in the DVD-A camp will license titles to the smaller audiophile SACD labels as they won't see it as a threat to their main income.

Any thoughts?

 

Do you think any audiophile-only format can survive in the marketplace?

 

Yep, and how the hell did you reply so fast, I just finished keying the thing in.

 

Guy hits it on the head. Steve has done some very nice work for Analogue Productions recently. Try finding them unless you look real hard. Perhaps they're selling as well as AP hoped (mostly on-line sales), but the combination of Steve Hoffman and CCR should not result in a niche product. And we all saw what happened to MSFL and DCC. There's got to be a way to combine "audiophile", "affordability" and "readily available" in the same business plan.

Cliff

 

Wouldn't it be better if we could raise the musical and auditory consciencenous of all consumers so they could enjoy what we do? I am one man who educates as many as I can.

I can make a difference.

I am an army of one.

I am fighting an up hill battle

 

"Do you think any audiophile-only format can survive in the marketplace?"

Absolutely. The LP!!!

The LP is surviving a lot longer than anyone predicted and shows no sign of going away.

Als, I bet Super Audio stays around for a while. The grass roots efforts among audiophiles and early adopters is very strong.

I have some reservations about this as an audiophile niche only deal:

1. I think we would see fewer superstar titles like Dark Side of The Moon and fewer titles in general.

2. I think the masses will eventually catch on, if Sony continues to do hyrid only discs for remastering big name series (Dylan, The Stones).

3. We can always get the audiophile labels to support the format because a critical mass has been reached and these labels don't have to sell as many. Trust me I know, I have engineered some low selling but successful audiophile titles.

4. DVDA labels are already crossing over, even Warner is doing DSD recordings in Asia. So I think we are not losing but only a handful of moderate popularity titles to DVD Audio...I would like to hear The Eagles in Super Audio, however.

 

"Wouldn't it be better if we could raise the musical and auditory consciencenous of all consumers so they could enjoy what we do?"

Great point: read The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell to see how a few can make a real difference in consumer trends.

I understand it is a favorite of David Kawakamis at Sony as well.

 

Gary, I don't mean it in that sense. I think we all equate "audiophile" recordings with "obscure" in some sense, and, we do so with a certain amount of justification due to past history.

Let me make one clarification to what I originally posted: I am not using the terms 'Audiophile' and 'High End' in an elitist sense, I use the term referring to attaining the highest available standards and quality in reproduction. There is no reason any musical material can't be reproduced with care, as Steve has already demonstrated. I just want MY musical purchases to be of the highest possible technical/artistic mastering and, in my opinion that is a competently mastered SACD done by someone with an inherent musical as well as technical sensitivity.

 

Bill and others,
Educating the masses would be ideal but would also require that you subsidise their purchases!! Sure, we don't mean "audiophile" equals "elitist" but right now, if you wish to be an "audiophile", it means paying "elitist" prices. As I stated in another thread, people already think CD's are too high. Many boomers are willing to pay $14-$16 for reissues of their favourite titles, but $24+?? I don't think so. Formats that are affordable will survive. I don't know how convincing I can be in a forum where people are willing to pay big bucks on Ebay for OOP DCC CD's and original vinyl. Also, many "uninformed" contacts of mine scoff when they see a "heavy vinyl" release beside a standard release, and the vinyl costs more. They usually ask: "Why would vinyl cost more than a CD?? And who would fall for that??" That's what you're up against.

Cliff

 

I understand your point Cliff. I think the economic of supply v.s demand will drive the price down for some of the $24 titles. Marketing these products well, would help that. For example:

I have yet to see any of Steve's CCR hybrids at Best Buy, Circuit City, or Virgin. Heaven forbid they show up at Wal-Mart. When a consumer can see real progress in a format, they will become more will to risk the purchase. The Stones re-issues continue to do well. Lots of press for that but virtually none for CCR. That is bad marketing in my opinion on the part of AP. As I have mentioned before, I play SACD's her at the station and do a sow called Remasters that plays on three of our classic rock station. I called Chad one day at AP and asked if he would send me copies to play on the Re-masters program. He was not interested. Now, had he been willing to send a copy I would have directed listeners to location, both on the web, and in retail outlets to purchase them. Abkco was more than happy to oblige. I have seen some ads on the web and I think in some audio magazines for the AP releases, but no real marketing to a mass audience. I am sure there are valid reasons AP hasn't done this. I am not trying to rip on them or damage their very fine product. I am sure there are very valid business decisions that i don't pretend to understand that drive their marketing. I do understand what getting your message out can do for a product. That marketing can educate the public.

 

The LP does only because it has a 50 year history and a Gazillion good LPs still on the planet.

The Laserdisc format was THE videophile format from 1984 to 1997. Then, overnight... GONE. Not a single manufacturer of software or hardware left.
WHY???
Because it never amounted to more than a few percent of the market. Even at its most popular.

In order for ANY format to survive, it has to become (at some point) THE dominant format. Otherwise it becomes too easy to get dumped when the next best thing comes along. And the next best thing is already not too far away.

Anyone here thinks there is a chance of SACD or DVD-A becoming the dominant format anytime soon?

BC

 

Bill,
You're demonstrating your Baton Rouge-to-Toronto telepathy. I essentially wrote your second paragraph in the same context in another thread. Perhaps AP is happy selling CCR SACD's online only and at CES but it's not good enough (to me) for getting out the word on Steve's fine mastering. And it's at a price point where a sort of casual CCR fan like myself will not buy them (a friend made me a complete set of the K2 remasters). I'd love to have them on SACD, and to further enjoy Steve's work (love the Zombies SACD) but not the current price.

Last week, I bought the Diana Krall hybrid MCH SACD (Look of Love) for $23 CDN (taxes included - about $15 US). That's a steal. $24 US + shipping + taxes for CCR - don't think so. Hopefully, Steve will be mastering soon for a major label.

Cliff

 

Not to mention the importance of turntables in the hip-hop world. Sorry, vinyl may have some audiophile characteristics but I wouldn't call it an "audiophile-only" format by any stretch of the imagination.

Besides, there are an awful lot of crappily-mastered LPs out there too!

 

Wow, you got promos out of Abkco! (That didn’t happen much in the past)

Do you think AP has enough copies of the CCR SACD’s to put into every mass retailers inventory?
Would there really be more sales of these titles in such a situation?
You also need to know a little bit more about independent music distribution.

I think they are testing the response to these back-catalogue titles so they can figure what kinds of sales a rock oriented release could achieve and use this information to plan future releases.

 

Obviously the LP survives because IT CAN BE an audiophile format.

BTW, in another thread, notice the USA Today headline...."...SACD-DVD-A fight"...Do you think non-audiophiles want to be part of an audio war?

BC

 

Laserdisc was a sort of hybrid kludge that reached its rather limited but still suprising success due to the fact that there were many (myself amongst them) who wanted something better than video tape. Its size and vulnerability as well as being mixed analogue/audio, digital/video meant a limited life span.

Not so, there will always be a market (albeit relatively small) for superior product be it a music format, car, Tv or anything else you can name. On most of the audio sites people spend a lot of time discussing equipment that cost as much as a small house. These discussions wouldn't exist were there no interest or support of these things.

Most people don't give a damn about leading edge audio, video or anything else for that matter. If we are going to wait for the mass market to adopt leading edge high quality state of the art in a music delivery system forget about it! it ain't gonna happen. It will always be a relatively small segment who will support and demand SOTA and, we are the ones who will have to and willingly do pay the price. It always has been and always will be.

If you are going to wait for mass market dominance of a superior format catering to the highest demands and standards then be prepared to wait for a very long time mired in a morass of mediocrity. I for one am not prepared to do so.

 

It would be nice but it won't happen. Music is but a small part of most peoples lives. Small, as in sound as heard through car stereos, boomboxes, restaurant/bar loud'speakers' and discmans. Hell, they won't even buy mediocre sound anymore. Why would they spend more on sound they don't use?

People who prefer good sound have places where they can go and pay more for better sound. But unless we teach our children, that will eventually dry up and die.

 

Humm...I agree with everything you say.
I am not prepared to wait either, which is why I stick to LPs.

BC

 

IMO, I think that Hi-Rez music should be available for the masses. I remember when DVD's came out and I (of course) was an early adopter (or it adopted me), I lot of people I knew (friends, Romans, etc.) thought I was nutz! "What's wrong with VHS? You can't record on BVD's! There are only a few titles!! Blockbuster will never rent them!!!". Anyway, should we have boycotted to keep DVD's away from the masses? Well, maybe but I think a nice, good format is healthy when the user percentage passes 1-2%...

Todd

 

Todd,
Congrats on being an early adopter, and thanks!!! But "BVD's" have really taken off in the past year or two because of the affordability. Hi-rez music is still not affordable to the masses (who probably don't even have the hardware). While prices are coming down in hi-rez for both software and hardware, and disc prices are cheaper than both MSFL and DCC, they are still "niche" priced. More same-day releases as the standard CD would be good.

Cliff

 

Technology is moving so fast that neither CD, DVD-A or SACD will be around
for long.

Take a look at DVD's. We're already talking about HD-DVD.

In the Short term.
SACD has to be out front in center and must proliferate the Marketplace in order to fulfill the promise that Sony and Phillips is hoping to realize.

 

Thanks Gary. Just my point.
The LP is not competing with SACD or DVD-A.
CD is.

BC

 

No. Since AP is very small, it would seem to me that they did a sales forecast to determine the spurt of initial orders combined with and estimate on what they anticaped would sell over a short period of time - perhaps as little as 3 months.

No. There is a general price resistance among mass consumers that would inhibit AP's ability to sell a greater quantity through mass retailers (judging from some comments in this thread, even audiophiles appear to object to AP's pricing). I would even venture that their contractual agreement with Fantasy might prohibit placing these products in a chain like Wal-Mart or Target.

Probably not. AP has an excellent grasp on what sells in the audiophile niche market, and probably has a fairly accurate estimate of how many copies it will sell of any title over the term of their contract.

 

For the first few years, BVD was a niche market. It sometimes drove my wife nuts when a lot of titles (also new releases) were not available on the skinny, shiney disc. I remember there was only 1 or 2 places in the city in a mile or 2 radius that rented them (Hollywood Video, Kims). Blockbuster gave BVD the big finger for several years. Players were still kind of costly and so was the software (at least in B/M stores/only coupon heaven was another story). Anyway, I think software cost will go down for hi-rez music as it did with BVD. The wheels are really turning now!

Todd

I also remember Speilberg was holding out on any of his "A" titles until at lease 10 million players sold. That took a few years to accomplish but once the big wheels started turning and the general public caught on, no problemo...