KEF LS50 and integrated tube amp

I agree, a lower-powered Single-Ended or Push-Pull tube amp is not always going to be a good match for inefficient speakers and certain types of music on those speakers. But again, I think it's a matter of the load being presented to the amp by the speakers and the types of music one listens to.
The OP is in regards to tubes or hybrid-tube amps and the LS50s, which is why I mentioned the Oto to begin with, along with several others.
Why some on this thread continue to beat-up on tubes is beyond me...

 

Because they can be unreliable and costly in comparison to chip based power, especially for difficult ish loads and accurate drivers.
$4K is big money for 10w.
Once they were cheap as chips , now even though they are chinese made they cost a fortune.
This is not right.

 

Yes.
Warm, lush cello, viola and violin strings on classic ensembles such as Schubert's Trout Quintet.
Deep bottom end and fast attack and decay of every pluck on the double bass.
And a true, timbrally-accurate transparency to the sound and separation of each instrument in the recording. Lightning-quick responses to any change in dynamics to the song...
Yes, that is what the Oto does. And again, IMHO, it does it better than any solid state amp I've heard. I would even include the Devialet 240 in that, again my own opinion. Which at 240 watts positively dwarfs the Oto on rated power, but alas is unable to match the Audio Note, or the Sugden A21SE for that matter, on sound reproduction that makes a recording sound like real instruments: not an approximation.
Also, why you keep trying to compare guitar amps from the '6os to everything is beyond comprehension.
It's 2014, not 1960.
The OP makes no mention of guitars on this thread.
And I think many would appreciate it if you stopped stating your opinion as fact.
And lastly, if you haven't heard any of the amps in question, what are you basing any of your comments on to begin with?
I think the key to getting anything out of these forums is being able to have a dialogue and discourse and learn from others speaking from personal experience. Not a soapbox to continually parrot the same old song as fact rather opinion.

 

But that is exactly what you do.
I mention the Mullard 5-10 as the basis for many Brit amps, not just gtrs.....

 

Audio Note UK only manufacture the Zero line of components in Asia, everything else is hand built in East Sussex by English men and women whom I happily support.
Who are you to say what AN products should be priced at?
Do you have any idea how much R&D costs, or proper, real living wages for the skilled craftsmen who build the AN gear in Hove costs?
You get what you pay for.
Which amps exactly can be costly and unreliable?
The AN gear?
I've heard nothing from anyone that has purchased modern tube gear that it is either too costly or unreliable.
Real-world examples would be great, not hearsay.

 

I don't believe the Audio Note can do all that and be transparent. You may think it is transparent...or real sounding. Most likely what is making you think you are hearing real instruments is the coloration from the amp...not transparency.

Good advise to the OP would probably br the EL34/KT88 route with the KEF's.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't parrot.
Nor is this my soapbox.
I merely suggested the Oto as an option and encouraged a listen before passing judgement, and I keep trying to find out if you have, in fact, heard any of the amplifiers you continually dismiss as distorted.
Unfortunately, you never answer the question, so one can only assume you haven't, and therefore why should anyone, especially the OP, listen to your opinion on something you haven't even heard?
And for the record, I always do my very best to include that what I'm passing along is merely my own opinion, not fact.
Hence the liberal sprinkling of "IMHOs" to almost everything I've posted in this thread.

 

I find it comical that you, or anyone, thinks they can tell someone else what it is they are hearing.
Perhaps if one heard an oboe you would tell them it's a clarinet?

 

I'm right. What you think is transparent is coloration in the midrange. I find it comical that you don't understand that.

 

Transparency, as an audio term, deals with an absence of distortion. Generally, speakers, even good ones, are going to add more distortion than an amp. So, the distortion of tubes is not readily recognized as distortion. Even then, I believe the Sudgen discussed has a worse SN ratio than my tube amp and many tube amps. Possibly, transparency is the wrong term to use, and is drawing the wrong sort of attention. Tubes do distort. It is a measureable fact. They also do some other things SS amps don’t seem to do, and the why and how remains a bit mysterious and is probably related to harmonics.

 

True, that's the magic of tubes. I have, however found that tubes can enhance certain recordings in a spectacular way and can hurt others. I finally decided to go back to solid state because I didn't want my amp dictating what I listened to (plus I wanted to move back into floor standers).

 

OK! Cool
This is a good passionate discussion, and one of the reasons I love the audiophile world.
How about we start a separate thread?
I'm thinking the title should have to do with what the perceived differences are between valve amps and solid state, as far as transparency (or harmonics as suggested) timbral accuracy (sounds like a real instrument), Etc.
Sound good?
What else specifically should be included? A poll?

 

haha, sounds like someone poured themselves a drink (jealous)

also enjoying the discussion, fwiw

 

Look at it this way...you didn't like Simaudio and that is pretty close to being as neutral as you can get (along with Bryston and Mcintosh to name a few). I don't think there needs to be another thread, but I do think that it is important not to give bad info to someone looking for a tube amp to drive his speakers. While Audio Note (and other manufactures of tube gear) may approach neutral, it isn't free of coloration. Even Octave gear (which is the most neutral stuff that I have heard) adds color in the midband. It isn't a bad thing, but it is a trait of tubes.

 

On the beach

 

I still equate transparency in an amp, speaker, cartridge, DAC , CDP, etc. as sounding as close as possible to real instruments or voices without adding anything that isn't there.
Simaudio for example, sounded sterile as opposed to real IMHO.
I'm not really interested in measurements, I'm interested in realism to my ears. Valves sound far more real to my ears (I hear a fair amount of live music, and have worked professionally in various guises with 24/96 files for film and TV) than solid state does, with the variety of amps I've heard so far. I
I don't think suggesting to listen something out of the mainstream as far as pairings go is a bad idea either.
I still think a new thread is a good idea

 

As the OP, I think that would be a great idea as the discussion has a broader appeal than my post. But, add a link here....

 

Rafe
You are 'learning as you go'
Some of us have been doing this for 50 yrs plus, as a hobby and profession
Valves are very lovely devices, but so are chips
Some of us have done both
Our valve kit really was cheap at the time,EL 84 s were radio valves,cheap and cheerful with high gain and quality.
Horribly expensive Audio Note UK amps @ 10 wpc is not the answer to a KEF LS50.
Ive had all the classic UK valve amps from the Mullard 5-10 progeny and they were great fun, so I am somewhat marred by that experience
I believe Peter Walker was right, a wire with gain, not benign distortion, however slight.

 

I just don't want somebody to get the wrong advice. Most people view transparency completely different. I think if you said your amp injected a sense of realism into the recordings or something similar it would be less misleading.

 

The last amp I built uses horizontal deflection tubes that were developed for television service. They sound very much like a BIG EL84, and cost $2.50 each, probably less than the retail price in the 1960's. David Berning used the very same tube in his early amplifiers.

jeff

 

Fair enough.
Good to know Rolo.
To be honest, that's really closer to the answer I was looking for from you, as the constant dismissing of valves seemed unreasonable without context from someone I knew to have a lot of audio experience.
Thank you.
I always look forward to learning more, let's move forward.

 

Me either, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Some of my very best audiophile discoveries seemed implausible at the time.
Hearing is believing.

 

A little less certainty never hurt anyone. Well, I could probably come up with a few examples where it did. Nevermind.

 

I guess objectivists would want to call out Transparency International to pass its judgement on this.

 

I have a pair of LS50s in my secondary system and have two amps that I am debating between keeping to use with the LS50. One is the solid state Odyssey Khartago Extreme @ 130 watts with an Odyssey Tempest solid state preamp and the other is the Primaluna Prologue Premium. The room is fairly small at about 12.5 feet x 11.5 feet.

I haven't made my decision yet on which I'm going to keep, but I can tell you my initial observations. In my room, my perception has been that the Khartago puts a little more emphasis on the mid-range frequencies because the vocals stand out a bit more compared to the solid state. I feel there may be a little bit more detail with the Primaluna, but it's not a drastic difference. The Odyssey gear has more well defined bass and sounds a bit more dynamic overall. I feel that both systems are enjoyable and overall the differences aren't drastic to my hearing.

My opinion is that the Primaluna is a good match for the LS50s, but I would probably be a little hesitant to use them together in a larger room.