King Crimson's Discipline on CD

There's been a bunch of versions of this: an early 80s edition on Polydor, a Warner Bros./EG release, the 1989 Definitive Edition, and now the 30th Anniversary version. I was going to pick up the 30th anniversary edition but then I saw some disparaging remarks about it in the SH archives. So what's the CD version to have?

 

I like the 30th Anniversary.

 

Me too. Sounds great, like the rest of the 30th anniversary series.

 

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=58578

I don't hate it as much as I did when I first bought it. I was content and used to the way the CD and vinyl sounded. The 30th sounds a lot different.

 

30th is great, sez me. (though it does include an alternate take that kinda ruins the flow. play tracks 1,2,8,4,5,6,7 and skip 3)

The Polydor's not bad at all, though. I never heard the WB - was that a separate master or just a clone of the Polydor?

Not very impressed with any of the Definitive Edition masters. They're not awful, just not good.

 

I don't know. I've heard them both, a long time ago, but I don't recall if I did a direct comparison.

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

 

The alternate of Matte Kudasai is at the end of CD. How could that ruin the flow.

 

It doesn't, if you turn off the disc before it's finished. (Maybe your CD player lets you program tracks like that, mine makes me jump up from the couch and run towards it the second that track 7 ends. If one of the cats is sitting between me and the CD player, it's getting run over.) It's not like with DVDs, where extra material requires a whole separate step at the menu. I just resent having any superfluous repetition in the main program. No one needs the same recording twice on the same album. (*cough* well, except maybe for Miles's 'In A Silent Way' - but that's part of the original album, not a bonus feature.)

I admit that sticking the alternate at the end causes the least possible harm, but it just seems so unnecessary. Alternate mixes and edits? That's what CD singles are for.

 

Talk about interrupting flow, I hate the CD since it just continues through all the songs without making me flip it over. I mean, flipping the record is part of the original, and by taking that away, they've seriously altered the experience!

I just program my CD player to play half the songs then I get up and program it to play the other half. Ahhhh... much better!



Seriously though, for critical listening I reach for the LP. I've listened to the 30th anniversary CD and it sounds pretty darn good, but it lacks the impact of the LP.

 

I resently made a comparison between the 30th anniversary edition and the W. Germany Polydor edition. I find the early Polydor edition to be superior.

This is how it looks (Track 5 on the 30th):

 

Track 5 on the Polydor editon:

 

Is the US Warner 3629-2 edition a clone of the W. Gemany Polydor editon made by PolyGram?

Please post the peak levels from the US Warner edition.

This is the peak levels from the Polydor edition:


Track 1
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(01)Elephant Talk.wav

Peak level 81.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 19EAC6C5
Copy OK

Track 2
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(02)Frame by Frame.wav

Peak level 78.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC C7E515C8
Copy OK

Track 3
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(03)Matte Kudasai.wav

Peak level 73.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC D02C2CB9
Copy OK

Track 4
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(04)Indiscipline.wav

Peak level 76.8 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC CEAA936F
Copy OK

Track 5
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(05)Thela Hun Ginjeet.wav

Peak level 79.4 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 573A431B
Copy OK

Track 6
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(06)The Sheltering Sky.wav

Peak level 67.5 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 5A6DBEF1
Copy OK

Track 7
Filename G:\K\King Crimson\Discipline\King Crimson-Discipline-(07)Discipline.wav

Peak level 81.2 %
Track quality 99.9 %
Copy CRC 39FB299D
Copy OK

 

Here is track 5 from the DE version:



Dr M and I just recently compared the 30th anniv versions of LTIA. The DE version was better. Less clipped/limited/compressed and cleaner sounding. It's in here: http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=94932

The comparison for Discipline seems just as valid here: the waveforms of the 30th anniv of Discipline just do not look that good.

But ... Here are the numbers from the DE version to compare to Dr M's:

Track 1
Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC D46E7367
Copy OK

Track 2
Peak level 94.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC E92022FA
Copy OK

Track 3
Peak level 65.2 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC E924CAC2
Copy OK

Track 4
Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 681C149D
Copy OK

Track 5
Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC DBE188EE
Copy OK

Track 6
Peak level 91.9 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 992D32BC
Copy OK

Track 7
Peak level 100.0 %
Track quality 100.0 %
Copy CRC 0AA37794
Copy OK

This gets interesting, because the 30th anniv version looks bad. Clipped/limited/compressed whatever.

But the DE versions does hit 100% peak level on some tracks whereas the W.G. Polydor doesn't. But look at the waveforms. To me, it seems as though the DE version seems more dynamic. (Look at the average value and then look at the spikes. The spikes of the DE versions appear better differentiated from the average. Hard to explain.) Dr M- can you get RMS's for the W.G. Polydor version? (I'll post them from the DE version tomorrow.)

For those of you who believe that the 30th anniv version sounds the best, have you actually done a level matched, back to back comparison with any other versions? I'd be surprised if the 30th versions sounds that good based on what we saw with LTIA, and based on the visual waveforms presented here.

You have to compare. You can't have owned only the 30th anniv edition and say that it sounds good without comparing it to any other version. The differences are subtle, but with a level matched, back to back comparison, they are pretty easy to pick up.

 

The look of the waveforms don't bother me. I think all of the 30th anniv. versions sound just fine, and I have owned all of the many issues of these discs.

 

This is some statistics from track 5 Thela Hun Ginjeet. First the Polydor: I hope this is what you asked for?

 

This is from the 30th. Same track:

 

I may be mistaken, but the first pressing of the US WB was made by Polygram and the matrix number is the Polydor disc.

 

They should. In the other thread, I showed how the peak values for the 30th anniv disc of Larks were *less* than the DE version, but the RMS was higher. That means the 30th anniv version of that CD is limited/compressed/clipped/whatever compared to the DE version. And I and others have heard those effects when we've done a level matched, back to back comparison.

 

The 30 year anniversary version. It is HDCD also.

 

Why can't I just trust my ears? I own the DEs and the 30th Anniversary Editions of most of their studio albums--the 30th editions just sound better to me. Damn, LTIA and Discipline both sound way better in their latest incarnation.

It's not that I don't trust what the graphs are telling me, especially given Simon Heyworth's reputation for maximizing stuff. But there's some magic in the 30th Anniversary editions--at least that's what I'm hearing.

 

The few KC CDs I have heard, the 30th editions are by far the best sounding to me and they're easy to get. The inserts are also a treat.

 

I trust my ears too. I spent 40 min comparing small sections of 3 tracks on Larks. Loud and soft passages, transitions, beginnings and endings of songs, the different instruments, and John's voice. I did this with my speakers and with headphones. I know what I heard, and it *matches* the waveforms. (Of course, that's no surprise in terms of what the waveforms represent, after all.) And the waveforms from Discipline show the same differences between the two versions as with LTIA. Do a level matched, back to back comparison, and be honest with yourself with what you hear. I think you'll be surprised.

The booklets are better, but that's it. As we all know from the many threads on this forum that talk about different CD mastering, louder isn't necessarily better, and newer isn't either.

 

Trust your Ears, not the skinking graphs.

 

No, I wholeheartedly agree, Kevin. Louder isn't necessarily better, nor is a new, shiny remaster better. I generally agree that the remastering enterprise is, on some level, a means to extort money from people who care about music.

But on the other hand, the more time I've spent as a member of the forum, I also can't help but feel that there's an indiscriminate distrust toward most remasters. That's just not warranted, IMO. The Doors, Jethro Tull, George Harrison (Dark Horse not Capitol), Dire Straits, and King Crimson are but a few artists who have, IMO, benefitted profoundly from the remastering of their albums.

As for LTIA, I will grant you your opinion, and I did spend time comparing. What I hear is a greater dynamism in the 30th Anniversary, and I really like that. There's a "light" and "shade" that has been fleshed out in the remaster, especially where Muir's instrumentation is concerned. Yes, the remaster is certainly louder--you're definitely right about that one--but there doesn't seem to have been a loss of the sonic nuance in the process. If anything, I believe that I hear even more subtlety. But in the end, it's all subjective, which recording we prefer.

If I seem to scowl, it's only because that I feel, maybe unfairly, that the use of graphs and charts tends to quantify the qualitative and objectify the subjective. We all hear things differently, IMO.

Thanks,
Nate

 

But when the (skinking) graphs and charts support what I'm hearing ...

I guess at the end of the day, each person has to be satisfied with how they compared the CDs, and that they settled on the best one.

In general, I'm not biased towards or against newer remasters. I just picked up the latest versions for the last 3 Gentle Giant CDs, and they all sound better than the earlier releases.