Led Zeppelin II ~ label / pressing mystery... U.S.? German? French? (Help please!)

I found an interesting copy of Led Zeppelin II on the Internet. The original description of the record said the Lp was a U.S. export pressing for Germany, with a U.S. gatefold cover and 1841 Broadway address labels, but with the "GEMA" mark printed on the label. The album has the standard U.S. etched matrix plus a typical European stenciled matrix:

Side One: (ST-A-691671) (28 0654 319 S1)

Side Two: (ST-A-691672) (28 0654 319 S2)

It also has the initials "PF" hand-inscribed in the dead-wax on both sides.

The gatefold Cover has SD 8236 on spine, but lists no info on the back cover whatsoever. No number, no country of origin, the back cover is completely free of any printed words or numbers.

The Lp has a plain white US-made non-die-cut inner sleeve.

Can anyone here figure out what this is? I thought that the "PF" initials stood for "Pathe Freres Studio", which is a mastering studio in France, if I understand correctly. If that's the case, it would seem to indicate that this particular Lp was mastered and pressed in France, with U.S. and European matrix info, with possibly a U.S. cover, and original "1841 Broadway" U.S. labels and a "GEMA" stamp.

That seems to be an improbable mismatch of individual elements, so I'm almost certainly reading something wrong. I'm sure W.B. could identify the type-font, and somebody probably knows what the deep-groove circle around the spindle-hole indicates. If anyone can figure this out, I'm sure this is the right place to ask...


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I have something similar to this but mine is a one sided RL.

Side 1: ST-A-691671 - A LW AT RL
Side 2: ST-A-691672 - M LW AT and what looks like an W

Also has GEMA 1969 on the labels.

I bought it off a UK seller and figured it was some sort of weird hybrid.

I'm pretty certain this topic was discussed before though.

Eddie

 

I had Crosby Still Nash & Young's Fourway Street, which had the same labels as yours and also had American matrix numbers with PF in the deadwax.

I have a German pressing of The Allman Brothers Live at The Fillmore East, the labels have American matrix numbers with GEMA but don't have 1841 Broadway. The deadwax has American matrix numbers with PF in the deadwax.


I had a Dutch pressing of Yes's Fragile that had American matrix numbers in the deadwax.

Always wondered about this myself.
My assumptions are that they were mastered in France by Pathe Freres using American tapes (what generation I don't know).

JG

 

GEMA= usually German pressings
SACEM= usually French pressings

...I'd say it's a West-German pressing.

 

GEMA and SACEM are mechanical licensing agencies. Your LP is a pre-WEA merger West German pressing. Meaning pre-1973. Licensed from Atlantic Records. These use USA metalwork.

 

I agree, but a little precision, SACEM (and probably GEMA) are actually licensing/artists royalties/copyright agencies -not sure what you mean by "mechanical licensing agencies".

Sorry, that was the pedantic post of the day.

 

GEMA is performing rights mostly (like BMI or ASCAP here in the U.S.) and especially in 1973. They have since expanded into publishing and mechanical licensing (like Harry Fox is here in the U.S.). That LZ II was definitely made for sale in West Germany. It wouldn't say Gema like that on it otherwise.

Frank R.

 

Your copy should have a LAMINATED gatefold cover.

It is a first German pressing if it does not have the "RL" on Side 1.

The one-sided "RL" German pressing (as described by another poster above) is a later pressing, pressed from US lacquer/metal parts (probably mastered in the 70's, as evidenced by the larger and fatter "RL" on the dead wax).

 

There are lots of West German Atlantic pressings that use US stampers, but German vinyl, and were then made in Germany.
In general I think they sound very good and are desireable, but obviously in this case they aren't the RL, so it's probably not what you really want.
Clay

 

I agree with the poster who has identified this as a German first pressing.

FYI:

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=vinyl&m=250662


I have pretty much exactly the same pressing that you have down to matrix #'s, labels and your description of the gatefold jacket. Bought it after reading the above thread from the vinyl asylum. I've gone through multiple copies of this album trying to find a really good sounding version (unfortunately I have not heard an RL) and this is a really good sounding pressing. I recently lucked into mint UK first pressings of both II and IV, and although I haven't really done a head to head comparison, the German pressing from recollection holds up very well with the UK first which has brought astronomical prices on Popsike. Side 2 on the German is particularly great IMO.

In any event, if you have a NM or pristine copy, you will probably search long and hard to find something that sounds better IMO.

 

Thank you to everyone for the great replies!

 

I have that album, my dad bought it new in Germany

That is from a US Army PX. The original buyer for my copy was my dad. He purchased his at a PX at Ramstein in fall 1969 / spring 1970. I can't narrow the date any more than that for absolute certain because my dad passed away in 2001 and my mom only remembers the time they were there, not the exact record purchases. I know he told me he purchased it the first day it was available at the PX.

The Atlantic SD 8236 glossy gatefold is a 1969 pressing with the 1841 Broadway address. Deadwax on side 1 is ~18mm and side 2 is ~25mm.

label is orange/white/green
ST-691671 GEMA - P.1969
AT RL LW ST-A-691671-A
AT LL LW ST-691672-M

Both sides were hot-stamped with "Made In Germany"

If you bought it used in the USA, it probably came back with a military man, same as my copy.

 

Hi PhysGraf,

Glad I "subscribed" to this Thread so it notified me that a new message had been posted

Thank you for the information and especially the details, and welcome to the Forum!

 

I just picked up an exact same copy, while Side 1 (RL) is stunning, I found Side 2 not to be as good as the AT/GP (George Piros) cut I have.

JG

 

I found an LP copy of Iron Buttefly - In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida locally at one of the used record shops recently.

It's an odd one. It uses the mono bi-coloured ATCO label and is a very early pressing. According to Discogs the first U.S. pressing of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida used the bi-coloured ATCO label. All other pressings into the late 1970s used the yellow ATCO label.

Here are some photos and runout information.

Iron Buttefly - In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida
ATCO U.S. for Germany ?? - 1968
LP weight - 155 grams



Deadwax:

Side 1: (etched) STC 681329-B / DT 1 / LW
(machine stamped) Made In Germany

Side 2: (etched) STC 681330-B / DT 2 LW
(machine stamped) Made In Germany

LW indicates the plating/metal parts are from Long Wear Stamper Corp., Long Island, New York. Don't know what the DT means, but I've seen it in the runouts on other U.S. Warner LPs before.

http://www.discogs.com/label/438055-Longwear-Plating

Back cover has the 1841 Broadway address.


This is the only time I've seen a stereo LP copy of In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida on the gold / grey bi-coloured mono ATCO label. According to the ATCO Album Discography Web page:

The second Atco label was gold on top and gray on the bottom with black printing, this label was used for monaural albums.

http://www.bsnpubs.com/atlantic/atco101265.html

The look and feel of this LP sure makes me think it is an American pressing. The vinyl and labels are not shiny as are other German pressed LPs in my collection. As you can see in the photos the labels have a matte finish. The jacket however is thin and laminated indicating it is European.

Also I just noticed something in the deadwax. On Side 2 the machine stamped Made In Germany was stamped over top of the etched DT 2. I'm leaning to, not a German LP pressing.

 

Chris

I'm sure it is an actual German issue LP. That was the early German stereo label for Atco. See this Buffalo Springfield LP.

http://www.soundstation.dk/data/products/135557.aspx

 

This is definitely a German pressed record aimed at a sort of Export application. US Military PX sale in Europe. German Atlantic was handled likely through West Germany's branch of Metronome Records who had the Atlantic/Atco license there pre merger with Warner Brothers and then WEA International which followed. Then Warner Brothers/Reprise were handled by Telefunken pre merger with Warner Brothers in Germany, who also handled Elektra Records . Some history.

 

This thread saved me from pulling my hair out trying to identify what I had picked up this morning. Thanks!

 

This comes up often around here, but it's entirely mistaken : "PF" does not stand for "Pathé Frères". "PF" is Günter F. Pfanz, a German mastering engineer at Tonstudio Pfanz in Hamburg.

Given how ubiquitous these PF cuts are in France, I'm guessing they were distributed here as well, if not throughout mainland Europe.

Pathé Marconi deadwax usually looks like this (all stamped) : "M6 329618 1 98434 A 21 C" (this particular exemple comes from my French copy of Pink Floyd's Animals).

 

Amusingly, my copies of Bowie's "Heroes", clearly intended for the French market ("Heroes" is sung in French), has a GEMA logo and makes no mention of SACEM.

 

I also have a copy of the German "Hot Stamper" pressing with "GEMA P. 1969" on the top right of the label. Picked this up around 1970 when I was stationed in Bremerhaven. There is no RL in the dead wax but it is very dynamic and exciting to listen to on BOTH sides. Not sure how it compares with the Ludwig but it is way better than the castrated 8236 and also marginally superior to the improved Piros reissue. Maybe this German 1st pressing (with or without RL inscription) is a genuine Ludwig after all even though it shows PF in the runout which by the way is narrow on both sides, unlike the RL which is narrow only on Side 2.

 

Hello Rasputin1,

What copy are you talking about? Can you communicate the numbers of matrices engraved in the dead wax ?

I thank you in advance for your attention

Christophe