Michael Fremer AAA vs 96/24 ADA vinyl Experiment

Came across this and found no thread discussing it. For those interested in the difference between AAA analog signal chain vinyl vs vinyl cut from a digital master, Fremer proposes paying (himself and through a Kicksterter campaign) for an LP to be pressed with AAA on one side and ADA from 96/24 source on the other side. Album will arrive in white package with white labels...no indication of which side is AAA or ADA. Experimenters will listen and vote.

Looks like Rachmaninoff recording will be used.

Who would participate? For me, it depends on cost of the LP, but I will be watching results keenly whether I participate or not.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/aaa-lps-vs-9624-aad-lps-what-can-we-hear#Xw81Kmri57dKp9jV.97
And
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/aaa-vs-9624-vinyl-project-update

 

This is awesome... I doubt I have the ears/equipment to hear a difference. But i'll probably pick up the LP anyway because I dig Rachmaninoff and I've never heard this particular presentation. The fact that Kevin Gray is presumable mastering both, makes it that much more enticing.

 

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...a-comparison-lp-project.452035/#post-12749764

 

There was a thread started about this a few weeks ago

 

My bad - my search didn't turn up that thread.

 

I don't *think* this article was the impetus for me downloading this album from HDTracks (24/192 IIRC) but I am so glad I did. As a metal/rock junkie, I play at least the first movement of this every night in my room. It is absolutely amazing and should make for a great recording to run this experiment against. With that said, I hope people will get copious amounts of time with this to see if they can pick out one or the other. In other words, I truly don't think "listen for 30 seconds... flip the record listen for 30 seconds..." is going to be at all helpful. In fact, I'd say it should take 20, 30 hours of listening in a comfortable, known setup to determine. This stuff just isn't THAT night and day IMO.

 

looks like this won't be happening, at least not according to the original schedule. the kickstarter needs 1,000 backers kicking in $10 a piece for a total of $10,000. the kickstarter is set to expire in 4 days and currently has a grand total of $3,915 pledged from 308 backers. so yeah, seems extremely unlikely Fremer's making up the remaining $6k+ in four days. the whole thing was fairly poorly structured and delivered - for example, a large number of people didn't understand whether their pledge got them a copy of the record or not (evidently it doesn't) - and that Fremer doesn't seem to be putting any of his own money into the pot likely also discouraged interest.

 

He should have had a tier where people get a copy of the record, and another tier where they can come out to listen to it on his Caliburn, or something. Apparently he wanted it to go through Acoustic Sounds, and they wanted to be able to sell each copy, apart from the Kickstarter. The $10 pledge apparently would give backers a corresponding discount on the purchase from Acoustic Sounds. It's just too complicated. Fremer should have just reissued it himself, without a label involved, after he got the license from the content owner.

 

That would be the difference between bringing a quirky idea into this world and a serious pain in the ass, involving individually shipping a thousand LPs as well as incurring financial risk.

 

It would be the difference between having a quirky idea and making it manifest. Kickstarter is designed to reduce the risk. If he doesn't want the pain of shipping the title, then there's a market for that, and it appears the market has spoken.

 

Exactly. The market spoke. I imagine it just wasn't of sufficient interest to Fremer to pursue it without greater market demand.

 

There were/are a lot of people that complained about his kickstarter plan. He wanted a thousand people to donate $10 each to produce the lp. Then, QRP would press the vinyl, supply a Stoughton printed cover, and Acoustic Sounds would put the package together and ship it, after they tacked a profit on for themselves. Knowing all this, I can foresee maybe $30 if not a little more for a comparison disc, start to finish.
The problem I see with this cost-wise is there was no approximate cost for the services performed by QRP/Acoustic Sounds. Everything is so vague, I have avoided it.

 

When he first proposed this I missed the fact you don't actually get the record. That makes the whole thing a bit of an eye-roller IMO. Pay money to "prove" if an analog mastered LP sounds better then a digitally mastered LP? And then what?

 

Exactly. He'd have got more interest if he'd offered the record for a $30 pledge.

 

I way I read it on analog planet was pay $10 into the pot and get nothing in return except to stand in line and pay the same price for this project as everybody else
I am not 100% sure, but I believe this was presented as nothing more than a donation for him to make his dream project a reality

 

I guess there was confusion over whether the pledge gets you a future discount or not, but yeah, successful Kickstarter projects need multi-tiered incentives, especially if the goal is to produce a product. You have to give people something of value for the money; it can't whiff of a vanity project.

 

Would have been funny if either there was no difference, or even better if 4 out of 5 audiophiles actually picked the digitally sourced side.

 

also the $10 supposedly guaranteed one the right to purchase the finished album at a price to be determined later. it could be argued that Fremer did a lousy job of explaining exactly what the $10 was for, but I think he was worried that telling people to donate a minimum of, hypothetically, $35 where the sell price of the finished album was included would deter support. he said as much that $10 would be trivial enough to encourage people to contribute who might not normally care about such a project. on top of that, I think his failure to make himself an investor when he's always bragging about how much money he's able to dump on exorbitantly priced audio components doesn't send a positive message, either.

 

Then he should have had multiple tiers. He could've had a $10 feel-good tier, and a tier at a price high enough to cover the production and shipping of a record. He just needed a little more knowledge of Kickstarter and he could've found better success.

 

I'm not sure if you read any of the comments in the posts he made about the kickstarter on his website, but Fremer repeatedly defended his idea of having only one tier on the basis that if you need dollar amount X, get a large number of people to kick in a small dollar amount and they'll jump at the chance. Unfortunately for him, kickstarters on the internet don't work that way. What I found to be a bit dubious was how Fremer also stated that he wasn't business savvy, but made it a point multiple times to completely exclude himself from any financial investment himself saying he didn't "want to leave (himself) open to losing money."

 

Exactly! He wanted a thousand people to fund his project, then, if you wanted the lp, you had to buy it from A.S. But, if you did donate the $10, you were given the opportunity to pick up the lp at a so-called discounted price. The Downside to all this is waiting to see what Chad was going to charge for the finished product and then add his $7.95 shipping charge to get it to you. Then, maybe you would spend more with A.S. on other stuff to eliminate the shipping. Any way you look at it, pressing 1,000 lps (or more ), is a win-win for Acoustic Sounds and Michael Fremer.

He also didn't take into account the fees that Kickstarter charges to collect and disburse the successful funds. It's not a lot, but it has to figure into his overhead.

 

which just means the $10 pledge deducted from whatever the final price is

 

The Kickstarter could have been managed better, but I think the reason why this failed is there was no real substance to it. First of all, it was a recipe for confirmation bias, Fremer's audience (myself included) already know they prefer "AAA" and likely would continue to think this regardless of the outcome. The best case scenario seems to be the ability to run to the internet and brag about the superiority of analog vinyl.

 

I think his kickstarter bombed because this whole idea was terribly managed.

- No real reward for kicking in money
- Why is it 180 gram? For the purpose of the comparison it doesn't matter. Keep the costs down.
- I'm betting Stoughton Press isn't the cheapest place to buy jackets either, even if they aren't tip-on.
- 25 bucks for half an album? You could buy a real Analogue Production actual album for only five bucks more (well, before AP raised their prices)
He literally says for 8 grand (+2 grand in a cushion) he can get 1,000 copies. That's 10 dollars to manufacture each record, including cost/shipping/plating/everything. Where's that extra 15 going to? If this is such a curiosity, why aren't they sold at, or near cost? Isn't this about SCIENCE, and not money?

 

interestingly, there have been two new backers since I bumped this thread last night, but the total amount pledged has increased by $770