Microsoft and The Music Industry Strike Again

Sad...Isn't it? Of course it is!

 

Just stick with us at the forum and you'll really appreciate the greatness of Steve's work. Always a tip or two from our great crowd!

 

How 'bout a tip on how you got such a large avatar? How do you do?

 

Where is the outrage for the following:

- Clothing made in sweatshops in foreign countries for a few dollars and then marked up to $50 for a pair of pants or $100 for a pair of Nike sneakers?

- Electronics that are made of cheap plastic that cost hundreds of dollars?

- Your wife/girlfriend/sister/mom's makeup that cost $20 for a container that is so small you could drop it and lose it easily?

- Inexpensive $100 printers for your computer with replacement cartridges that cost $40?

- You know those little mini remote control cars that have popped up over the last year that sell for $15? I hear they cost $.50! Where is the outrage at the kiosk at the local mall?

CDs have many built in costs like publishing, recording costs, video costs, tour support costs etc. that get recouped. Unlike movies, when a record is dead, it is dead forever. When a movie bombs in the US, it could still generate income overseas, on DVD and on cable. While I don't agree that a Beatles CD should be $18.99 list (which you could easily get for $4 cheaper if you look around), that doesn't mean other industries don't keep prices high on products that make money. As sad as it is to say, when it comes to dollars and cents, CDs are products.

While I am sure many in the business are very thankful for your support and interest in the music you have purchased, no one is forcing you to buy anything. I disagree with anything that burns the fan and entices them to buy anything multiple times just to get an extra track or a better remaster. I am a customer just like yourself and I am irritated as well, especially now that I've trained my ears to look for bad mastering. But, I have never heard a single person on this board complain that the original list on DCC and MFSL CDs were around $29.98 each. This is before outrageous EBAY and AMusic Direct markups.

 

While I've gotta say they are free to charge whatever they want, no single CD should really cost that much.

 

I'm sure the Biz could give 2 s**ts about me or the thousands of dollars I've spent on their product...Your a funny Guy...

The DCC Golds are a Sonic fillet and a great investment...There worth every penny...Why would I complain? Were/Are they ever being replaced again and again and again...I know I'm getting an unbelievable sounding Cee Dee everytime I purchased one. I only need to buy it ONCE...I have yet to be not amazed with each one I've listened to...

 

I agree Michael...I don't consider $25-30 too much for a 100% guaranteed quality product. But I tend to resent folks who charge 17.99 for substandard crap. Just my .03 cents...

 

Especially when the music contained is mastered like crap...adding insult to injury of the finances...

 

I honestly don't think that the people mastering these titles think they are doing a crappy job. I doubt they sit there and say, "let's see how bad we can make this sound"!

For some reason they have it in their head that everything needs to be LOUD.

 

It isn't the mastering engineers, it's the record companies. Most mastering engineers abhor the practice. But, nevertheless, they do the best they can with their orders.

 

I highly doubt that. I work in the biz and while I don't agree with some of the things that go on, I don't know a single person that I work with that is the evil person that this forum and countless news articles make us out to be. The music business is like any other. It is a business that is there to make money. Unfortunately, the industry is being challenged mostly by kids behind a computer screen that think they are vigilantes out to "dismantle" the music business.


I buy CDs just like everyone else. I don't always end up with a satisfactory CD. There are countless internet sites (i.e. that band's site, Amazon, etc.) where samples can be heard from new artists or new releases. Also, stores like FYE and the new Borders locations have listening posts that have samples from a good 90% of all CDs in the store. Granted, FYE is expensive, so since many have access to the internet, CDs can be previewed and bought at Best Buy or other less expensive chains. I personally feel that lowering prices should level things off a bit and more CDs will be sold. It is simple economics. To simply say that "they cost what they cost" is really not the best answer. But, people don't realize how much they cost stores. Best Buy and Circuit City sell them with razor-thin margins to entice customers to buy a computer or stereo system. Like I stated in my prior post, there are countless costs involved in making a record that most consumers don't see or understand. They see the $.25 CD and think that is how much they should cost.


Everyone complains about the consumers being burned. Well, the independent record stores that cater to collectors and music fans are the ones really starting to feel the bite over this. Not Best Buy or Circuit City. By the end of the year, a good chunk of all those record stores will be gone.


I can't speak for remasters. Those are hit or miss. There are only so many Mastering Engineers that do a good job unfortunately. But, many people outside of this small community here think that all hiss should be removed and the volume should be louder. I guess they are giving the masses what they want. Believe me, everytime I see a remaster come along in my company now, I tend to cringe to be honest. Out of fear of the worst.


I will reiterate again, I've yet to see a public outrage from anywhere over:

$100 Nike sneakers that cost mere dollars to assemble in a foreign country
$4 boxes of cereal
$20 containers of lipstick
$9 for a movie in the New York City area and the $5 vat of soda at the concession counter
$50 Levis pants that cost mere dollars to assemble in a foreign country

I know this isn't the forum for propaganda and political discussion, but I am trying to make a point.

BOB

 

I couldn't agree more, Bob. The whining about music prices being too high is due to the fact that people can steal it easier and cheaper than a pair of Levis or Nikes.

I've made the argument before that music prices, adjusted for inflation, are indeed at an all time low. Look on some of the early 78's (I think Victors), and make note of the $0.75 price. Do you know what $0.75 would have bought back in the 1920's??? For 2 songs??? And you all think music is expensive now

It's a luxury item. No one's forcing you to buy music.

 

I agree but add to it, than goodness for the human entrepreneurial spirit and human stupidity for buying a cd for 19.99 that isn't worth it. Thank goodness there are people in the world that are better shoppers than I, cause I have been stupid like this before! But that is my problem and not the record companies.

As far as a monopoly goes, well, I know there are many Mac users here in the forum, I run a Windows XP machine, a power mac, and a linux box. I can get software for the Windows machine, but have difficulty getting it for the other two. Just as its difficult to get SACD's that I want or DVD-A's. I am not out stealing computers... or software...

And you are absolved of responsibility of buying these things you were "baited" into? They some hoe forced you into this purchase? You didn't check into the quality before ou purchase? Did you act this same way when you bought a car?

My point exactly. No one I have ever had this debate with has been able to make one valid, reasonable, and well thought out point arguing for the right of piracy. Never. Plain and simple, it is stealing. I'll go one step further and say some of these that preach in anger to software and record companies would be stealing cartridges for printers and makeup for their wives and other sorted items that they feel cheated by companies that produce such items. One rationalization after another has made it ok.

Are we mad at Television producing companies because they are producing HDTV's? Are you mad that you are going to have to buy one? Or that you'll have to buy a converter to downgrade the signal to your regular tv? Go to Best Buy and steal one... wait, you might get caught because they have security. Damn them, how could they? Let's face ti here. Technology gets better and then companies produce better products. MY gosh, the first cd's that came out didn't sound very good at all. SO, we are thankful that they got it to a point where it sounded good, and then should stop? The very reason cd's didn't sound good gave birth to MFSL and DCC.

Here we go... greedy? Copy protection is a hassle to their customers? What is this kind of logic? I'll meet you part of the way and ask for a label that educates consumers that the copying of material on the disc is prohibited by law and punishable by up to 10 years in prison with bubba and all the love and affection that goes with it. If the consumer knows its illegal and that they can get caught, the consumer will stop pirating. Michael isn't going to go steal a new car, and Metalbob isn't going to go steal a new HDTV from Best Buy.

This isn't a consumer's feelings being hurt. This is about out right theft. Whitewash it, rationalize it, sugarcoat it, dress it up in pink bows, and call it what you want, but it is stealing and it is illegal.

I don't think anyone has resorted to calling an individual a particular name, or insulted any individual, and I pray it desn't come to that. I did call us as consumers "cheap bastards" because we have all broken the law in this realm. I won't do it anymore and haven't for over two years. I was as guilty as the next guy. I have spent well over 7 grand on music since 1985 and don;t but regular cd's for personal use any longer. I buy SACD's and DVD-A's. That is it. I am glad their is a new product out there and am happy to support it whenever I can. I am a paying consumer that makes rational decisions about all of my purchases. I hope these words inspire other that feel cheated to do the same.

 

Part of that is because the Big Businesses that sell music PREFER those guys out of business. If not for them, the majors could have eliminated vinyl completely 12 years ago when they wanted to. Huge chains don't sell vinyl; there's less profit and more returns from it.

They charge the mom & pop store more for their wholesale CDs than they charge the Best Buy/Circuit City chains. (One reason those big stores can sell the CDs cheaper is because they get them cheaper. They aren't taking a loss on very many of 'em.) In fact, they charge Mom & Pops more than the BB/CC stores sell them for at RETAIL! Ever notice how the fine print of BB/CC ads say "no dealers, please"? That's why! If all the "little guys" are gone, then the labels can deal with fewer outlets, then they can raise the prices (their favorite solution to all their ills, unless it's crying to Congress) with near impunity.

I don't know where you've been, but this has been a cause celebre on many college campuses and even among some athletes for years. Admittedly, the concern is more about the working conditions of those who manufacture the products (child and/or slave labor in some cases). There have been protests, especially when a college signs an exclusive contract to put Nikes or Reeboks or Adidas or whatever on their athletes' bodies. And the companies know this; several years ago, when Reebok signed an exclusive contract to do the uniforms for the University of Wisconsin at Madison, it tried to insert a "gag" clause into the contract -- no one who worked for or attended the university in any capacity could protest its business practices at the risk of nullifying the multi-million dollar contract. A student couldn't even write an editorial in the campus newspaper! Once it became public, it was quickly stripped from the agreement. But I wonder how many places such a "gag rule" took place without comment.

 

Well, most independent accounts are not open to buy with majors because of the small volume that they sell. They have to buy their goods from a one-stop distributor. But, there are many that are. That means they are entitled to pay the same price as BB and CC. But, none get the shear volume of advertising rates that BB and CC do. I had a meeting with BB just last week and they state that although their prices are low, they do indeed make money on the entire music dept. in their stores.

Independents have been using BB as a one-stop for a while now. They buy their $9.99 releases and hit BB with free shipping and the 3.5% AMEX fee with the purchase. A 3 CD limit? Well, the independents will order a few dozen times and have it sent right to their stores! This causes records to be double scanned. Many independents are "weighted", meaning that a single sale can sometimes be counted by as little as 4 or up to even 10! Bruce Springsteen sold a lot of records with "The Rising", but I have a funny feeling a small chunk of them were sold twice.

I am well aware of the protests on college campuses over the use of products from companies that use 3rd world labor. But, I am not aware of this specific Reebok protest.

BOB

 

It was a pretty big deal here in Wisconsin. When a new contract came up for bids before the start of the 2001 fall season, UW-Madison switched to Adidas, and part of the reason was the fallout from the Reebok attempt to quash the university community's First Amendment rights.

Yeah, I know. The guy where I buy most of my vinyl sometimes vents to me about his "adventures in modern retailing," because he doesn't have the purchasing power to get stuff at the Best Buy rate, yet the record labels have promo people who call him and still want him to sell the stuff.

Actually, his clientele is such that they don't buy the stuff BB usually has on sale. But once in a while (the recent Springsteen is a good example) there are exceptions. Even if he can't sell it for $9.99 like Best Buy can, he'd at least like some kind of promotional goodie that Best Buy doesn't have to make it worth his while to his customers. Sometimes he gets them, sometimes he doesn't. Some labels do make an effort to reach out to the independent seller; others don't care. And don't get him started on all the new "value added" stuff that Sony's been doing lately -- reissuing the same music CD with a bonus DVD only three months after the other version came out, at the same price as the CD with no DVD, and with no provision for those who bought the CD early to get the DVD for nothing ...
it really makes you wonder if the labels care at all about their customers!

Record labels, though they'd rather not have to deal with them, still do SOME work with indie stores, because many times the next off-the-beaten-track breakout can come out of the mom & pops. In order for this to work, the new, unheard artist has to be someone the store owner and his customers, in addition to (or perhaps despite) the label, believe in. A recent problem: Labels often won't send out an in-store-play CD because they're afraid he'll put it online before it's released (and the guy doesn't even have a computer in his store, much less at home!). And he tells them that he won't buy quantities of something new that his customers don't know ("I can't recommend something to my customers that they haven't heard if I haven't at least heard it first") ...

And yet, he's doing well enough that he's just moved to a larger store along the main drag! More power to him and others like him.

 

In the case of Best Buy and Circuit City this is true. Tower stills sells vinyl and it is a MAJOR chain.

 

I thought so...I have no further comments other than my previous statements.

 

So that means what I have said and the examples I have stated have no merit? Trust me, this industry is NOT filled with scumbags and money grubbers like you think it is. I am not sure where you work, but I hope that no one finds a way to rip off your company and possibly put you out of work.

 

No profanity was used or thought of... Of course your statements have merit!

 

So Metalbob, from your point of view, if everybody else rips consumers off it is ok for you to do it too, right?.
I like to buy original cd's, I like to have the original artwork, a few days ago I bought the remaster of Tapestry by Carole King, it sounds really awesome, it cost me $ 9 at Best Buy. In the past I bought the whole Peter Gabriel catalog, now they want $ 20 for the remasters, I had them in my hand in the store, I decided to go home and download them from usenet.
Maybe the next remasters will be cheaper.

 

I am not saying ripping off anyone is OK. But, First off, who is ripping anyone off? Items cost what they cost. Period. I don't set the prices and neither does someone in my position at Levi's. Second, should the Peter Gabriel remasters be $20? Probably not. And if you bought them at Best Buy like you bought the Carol King, I guarantee they wouldn't be that expensive. I just checked their website and they are $15.99 each. If you are happy with the original Gabriel issues, great. I don't know if you would enjoy the new remasters or not, you would have to listen to them for yourself. If you did download them and DIDN'T enjoy them, did you delete them or did you keep them?

But, back to the argument of "ripping" someone off. there is no way for you to create a FREE replica of a pair of pants, a can of Coke or a skateboard. PERIOD, END OF STORY. That is the toughest thing about this entire fight with P2P trading and burning copies of CDs. It is an intangible item that is tough to claim "ownership" of. Everyone on this board or who is a fan of music and has received music "illegally". Anytime anyone says they will "burn" me something that I can buy at a store, either new or used, I refuse and say that I'll just listen to it to check it out or just go buy it. Personally, anything that is out of print, I think should be fair game. Even most artists wouldn't even care at that point.

 

not to mention that an increase in interest in an OOP title can often spur interest enough to bring it back -into- print.
I agree with you. I don't get all the whining about not being able to rip off your music for free. Hey, I -gotta- eat...does that make me entitled to free food for the rest of my life? Of course not. I also think artists should be compensated for their work, and I don't care how old it is. I think if ya wanna make a copy of your cd for your car, another stereo somewhere in the house, etc. fine. I don't think it's fair to pull it from the net for free, burn x copies and distribute them to all your friends and family. Before home taping became commonplace (the 50's and 60's, folks) you actually had to -buy- your lps. Imagine that...and they weren't cheap! Stereo lps had a $5 list price, which would be about $15 now figuring in inflation. Gas was 25 cents a gallon then, $1.50 now. That's a far bigger increase. Places like ebay have virtually everything you could possibly want and more. Very little of those sales go to the artists either. I would like to see people support the artists that make the music we all love so much. Otherwise, the quality is bound to continue to erode and rip offs like that 1 extra demo tacked on to your fave rave will become a -yearly occurance- so you'll have to own 20 copies to have all the variations. Certain classic artists are marketable that way. Thank God the Beatles don't really go in for all that (those few comps notwithstanding).

 

You're too easy on the greedy, largely slipshod music industry, Magic. I agree with your second sentence: ALL CD's of modern recordings should sound good, even the $17.99 or 13.99 ones. People complain about CD's costing $18. At least the damned things should sound good. So you shouldn't have to pay $25 or $30 to get good fidelity.

A price in the mid-teens is plenty for any CD. I'm not saying you shouldn't pick up the great-sounding stuff when you can, but the prices are inflated.

 

Illustrates my point above. Calavera didn't have to spend $25 for a good-sounding disc. No one should have to, even though many of us do.