DCC Archive Miles Davis???

DCC released Relaxin' Workin' Steamin'and Cookin' on gold cd. The only problem is I can't find them for sale at a reasonable price. JVC realesed these titles on XRCD. Has anyone had a chance to listen to the JVC stuff?

 

I own the jvc stuff..xrcd that is. I also own the dcc versions. They sound different from each other but both are very very good and far better sounding then above any other version on cd. That is of course in my opinion. If you would like more specific information, please feel free to ask.

 

Andy, most of those titles on DCC shouldn't be too hard to find. musicforasong used to have some Miles DCC -- haven't checked recently. I bought a sealed cutout of the DCC "Workin'" off ebay for $12 or so.

 

I have the XRCDs but am curious how they compare to the DCCs. In what way do they sound different?
Thanks,
-Jon

 

The DCCs sound warmer, a touch more "alive" tonally, especially in the midrange, yet "slower" and a touch less alive in the treble. The XRCDs and K2s sound extraordinarily focused, fast and a touch more detailed in a clinical sort of way. The XRCDs were done fairly recently, relative to the DCC's. You really can't go wrong with either as the improvement over the regular OJC crap is significant. It's worth pointing out that APO will release five OJC titles this March on hybrid SACD/CD, including Cookin' w the Miles Quintet. I cannot wait to feast my ears on those.

 

Comparing the DCC Miles/Prestige remasters to the XRCD, I personally prefer the XRCD. The DCC's are very warm, maybe a bit too much so, particularly since Prestige preferred a very rounde, fat tone with heavier bass than, say, Blue Note or Columbia would have done at the time. Every label had a house sound.

The XRCD's are more neutral in this regard, very open and detailed, not cold sounding but tonally very nice. Others have commented on a high-end boost producing brightness, this may be so but I haven't heard it. Sometimes I think it's an easy out to claim high-end boost to criticize other mastering, again, it may be so, and in many other cases is so, but here I think the XRCD's rule.

 

Dittos, Greg.

 

Note that these albums are also still IN PRINT on OJC as vinyl LPs, if you're looking for *really* superior sound.

 

I have "Steamin" on vinyl and it's great stuff, amazing that it's only stock-issue $12.

I have "Relaxing" on DCC I bought last year. Again, awesome performance, a classic, and sounds phenom'.

 

The last couple OJC's I bought at J&R, downtown NYC, cost me !7.99! - including Cookin' - I was just listenin' to Cookin' last night, in fact. Great record!

 

I think referring to the OJC as crap is a little harsh. Some of their releases like Bill Evan's: Waltz For Debby are actually quite good.

As for the Miles Davis Quintet, I have all of the DCC versions (minus Steamin') and think they sound great. Particularly Workin' which just blew me away.

The K2 processing just sounds a little too bright for me.

But that's my opinion.

- D

 

People, in my opinion, the XRCD's and K2s of Miles Davis sound the same as most of the other XRCD's I've heard: DIGITAL.

Don't get mad, some of the stuff is ok, I guess. What I mean is, they are just too damn bright. I mean, it's obvious that the typical Japanese mastering "style" is much different from Steve Hoffman's style.

Listen to the tape hiss on any of the XRCD's of Fantasy owned material. The tape hiss is so tipped up in the top as to be laughable. And the bass is so tweaked out, sure, it makes the stuff sound more "focused", but it doesn't sound like live music, unless you are listening on a pair of old Tannoy speakers in some small Japanese apartment.

The DCC Miles Davis' CD's do, in fact sound like the real deal. They ARE the real deal.

Try and find them if you can.

 

There was a bit of discussion on this back on the old board. Mr. Beck (I forgot the first name) usually adds a bit of top to all his work for the XRCD/K2's issued for Fantasy. It's most noticeable on the Creedence remasters, mostly because of the original engineering on those albums (notice the shrillness in Fogerty's voice).

 

John said:
>> Listen to the tape hiss on any of the XRCD's of Fantasy owned material. The tape hiss is so tipped up in
the top as to be laughable. And the bass is so tweaked out, sure, it makes the stuff sound more
"focused", but it doesn't sound like live music, unless you are listening on a pair of old Tannoy
speakers in some small Japanese apartment. <<

Actually that's my major criticism of CD in general, no matter who remasters it, but your point is well taken. Remastering tapes for CD must be like foreign diplomacy--you're faced with a bunch of bad choices and have to choose the "least bad" solution while fully cognizant that they all suck and that the finished product will sound like a cheap, unconvincing imitation of the tape.

 

Hmmm, I think you just said "When remastering tapes for cd,
the results always suck and sound like a cheap imitation of the tape."

Wow, that's pretty severe condemnation!

But maybe I missed something (as usual!)

 

"People, in my opinion, the XRCD's and K2s of Miles Davis sound the same as most of the other XRCD's I've heard: DIGITAL.

Don't get mad, some of the stuff is ok, I guess. What I mean is, they are just too damn bright. I mean, it's obvious that the typical Japanese mastering "style" is much different from Steve Hoffman's style.

Listen to the tape hiss on any of the XRCD's of Fantasy owned material. The tape hiss is so tipped up in the top as to be laughable. And the bass is so tweaked out, sure, it makes the stuff sound more "focused", but it doesn't sound like live music, unless you are listening on a pair of old Tannoy speakers in some small Japanese apartment."

Geez John, the two pairs of Tannoy speakers I listen to DO sound more like live music than anything I've herd elsewhere...

Maybe the problem is your speakers, and your digital front-end maybe sounds too digital?

On a natural system, the XRCD's are superb!

 

Robert,

I love Tannoy speakers. So does Steve Hoffman.

But even he will tell you that they begin to roll off around 12k. Just where the XRCD's start to get crazy.

Listen on a full range speaker and have your ear drums WATCH OUT FOR TIZZ!

 

I thought I would clear up some errors in facts that have been stated in this thread so far.

First of all the following information is in regards to a line of domestically released cds titled: "Prestige 50th anniversary special commemorative edition". This was a limited edition run of a selected number of tiles from the Prestige catalog. Further, there was a subsequent release of titles from the Prestige domestic line. These were called "Prestige 20-BIT". In both cases the 20bitK2 process is highlighted on the cd cases as part of the marketing. You can see the specific titles released here Prestige 50th
Finally, Fantasy jazz released a line called "20BitK2" and these are from selected albums from the Riverside and Contemporary catalogs. Information on the specific titles in this series can be found at Riverside OJC. So with regards to these titles the gentlemen's first name is Tmaki. I am getting this information from the back of the cd cover for the Cookin' album. The exact same information is listed on other albums from the three series I named. He is not the actual mastering engineer. He is listed as "under the supervision of Tamaki beck for jvc studios". The actual listed "mastering engineer" is Shigeo Miyamoto. Finally there is a note that states, "This album was mastered in analog utilizing the 20-Bit K2 super coding system. No other information is stated in regards to the mastering or engineering information of the series.


What did that info above have to do with XRCD or XRCD2, nothing. I just wanted to address the comment made about Mr. Beck engineering the XRCD albums. This is not correct information, what he did have to do was some kind of supervisory position on the albums listed above. Now let me address the information that I know about XRCD and XRCD2. Now this specific information is taken from the XRCD release of Cookin' also. But, it is applicable to all XRCD and XRCD2 as all the one's I have list this same information. XRCD mastering Alan Yoshida under the supervision of Akira Taguchi. The XRCD and the XRCD2 process of course uses the 20-Bit K2 super coding system. Now there are many other steps and processes in the XRCD/XRCD2 system that are done. I am not going to list them all here, you can go to the XRCD web site and read them or look in the inside of an XRCD that lists all the information. Now it doesn't state anywhere on the booklet if the album was mastered in the analog format or not. No other information is stated in regards to the mastering or engineering information of the series.


As far which cd releases use what master tapes, domestic or Japanese or what generation they are etc, I can't accurately speak to that issue. I can make some guesses based on the little information I know. I do know from the books in the XRCD/XRCD2 series, which state they are mastered at A&M Mastering Studios, Hollywood. And also from talking with Alan that the mastering is done in the United States. I would have to assume it would not be a problem to get the U.S. original masters sense it is being mastered in the U.S. As for the prestige anniversary editions, I cannot speak to where they are mastered, that is what country and what master tapes they use.

So now we know that the XRCD releases are mastered by a different individual then Mr. Beck. That of course is bound to make the XRCD sound differently then the Prestige. My point here is that the Fantasy issues, such as have the Credence have nothing to do with the XRCD line. Again I would also say that the K2 process, is mearly a step in the process, not something as to blame for how something sounds a certain way. As such I wouldn't take any comments about what Mr. Beck does with mastering to have any factor in the sound of the XRCD albums.

This statement is filled with so many non-qualified statements, you should, as someone reading it, should immediately dismiss it. The "tape hiss is so tipped up at to be laughable", in relation to what? Have you heard the master tapes? Is that what it is in relation too? Perhaps in relation to the Prestige anniversary cd editions? Perhaps in relation to the DCC cd releases? Perhaps in relation to the domestic Fantasy releases? Etc. etc. If tipped up you mean you can hear tape hiss, this doesn't mean its tipped up. It means it's letting hear what is on the master tapes. Many of Mr. Hoffman's releases have easily heard tape hiss. This also let's you know there isn't some kind of tomfoolery with noise reduction going on, which of course is always a good thing. "And the bass is so tweeked out", again in relation to what. Did you get to sit in the recording session so you know exactly what that bass sounded like at the mike? Perhaps in relation to any of the other recorded media versions of the album? A reader just can't tell because a qualified statement isn't made. This is just an "end-all" statement made with out any qualification. I personally, don't find the base on any of the XRCD to be tweaked out, bloated, out of control, or any of the other phrases used to indicate too much bass, at least not because of a mastering issue.

"It doesn't sound like live music", well I am not sure what live music your talking about. Again, no qualification of the statement. Most of the time, in my opinion, live music sounds terrible. Bad PA systems, or in house systems you have to listen though. Maybe, Out of tune instruments, you're too far away, things blocking your sound window, noisy people around you, etc. If however in "live" statement you mean the album sounds more real, more in the room with you, closer to the sound of the specific instrument, etc. then that's a more accurate statement to make. Of course I totally agree with that statement, and you that should be more of what you want to is what you

Finally for the board's information, Mr. Yoshida will be happy to play back an XRCD for you from his very own system. He takes it to CES every year. It includes Levison electronics and Wilson Audio speakers. No Tannoy speakers there. My point is not to state if Tannoy speakers are good or bad, but to state that the mastering engineer for the XRCD series defiantly isn't mastering with a set of Tannoys in mind. He has also stated that they use a very similar monitoring system when he is mastering. Further, he is someone who believes in the ideas of clean power, cables do affect the sound quality, etc. And, he has a real love of music. Actually if any of you are going to CES, I highly recommend you go to Alexis Park and find the room with the XRCD demo's. They will play anything you want and Mr. Yoshida is more then happy to talk shop with anyone.

Let me state what I think are the differences between what I HEAR on MY SYSTEM with the DCC vs. the XRCD. I have a system, which personally tends to error to a little bright/aggressive. However, I don't find the XRCD bright, tipped up, exaggerated or any other adjective. They do have an amazing amount of detail in the higher end of the frequency spectrum, so much so if you were to compare them to domestic standard releases you might think hearing those they have too much. The piano has great attack and nice delineation between the keys. The XRCD have excellent rhythm that just takes you right into the music. I also find the sound very balanced, not out of proportion at any part of the spectrum.

On the other hand the DCC do indeed have warmth to them. It's very appealing sound and adds a great almost smoothness to the trumpet. It also does this to the cymbals. Again, it adds slight warmth to the piano. I don't like to use the word warmth, but really cant think of a better adjective. The DCC also have a great sense of rhythm, but its different then the XRCD. It's more laid back and relaxed, the XRCD definitely sound more intense and driven. Now the DCC don't have the same amount of detail in any of the frequencies, nor would I expect them to given the date there were mastered in and the state of the AtoD at that time and other factors I am sure.

The bottom line is personally I think you can't go wrong with either. I own both sets, so that should tell you a lot. One day I may be in the mood for a certain "character" of sound. However, if you have a particular system that leans towards a certain sound, you might want to adjust what you seek out one vs. the other. CD is still not perfect sound. So you have to figure eventually you will replace whatever cd you choose with some hi-rez format anyway. Now these being premier recordings for Davis, you shouldn't have to wait too long to get a hi-rez version of these albums. As has been stated above one of them is already slated for SACD. At any rate, my point is get what you think will fill your system sound better, and of course let your money be your guide if that is an issue. Hope I didn't bore the crap out of everyone. LOL.

Thanks, for the word "chracter" Camarillo, I liberated it and went back and added into my post.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: notinear ]

 

If you like Miles, you have plenty of reason to buy SACD. There's more of him on SACD than any other artist. Bob Belden is in charge of the releases, and he knows what he's doing.

There was a fascinating post about Miles/Belden today on the Hi-Rez forum:
http://64.154.92.195/forums/hirez/messages/50889.html

 

My mistake on the mastering credit for the XRCD's; I also should have listed the full mastering credits for the K2's, too, but I didn't feel compelled to look it up when I got home and then post it again.

Anyway, the only point I wanted to make was that these CD's have a bit of top added to them. If you like that (and it's almost certain plenty of people do since many remastered discs these days add a treble boost), then by all means check them out.

Even if you don't (I sometimes end up filtering it out with a parametric EQ), the mastering still sounds better than the standard discs.

I'm not a big fan of the K2's for the CCR discs (blame it on the way it was originally engineered, I supposed), though it's an improvement on the older issues. But I really like the Bill Evans Trio discs at the Village Vanguard and the Thelonious Monks discs, particularly the former.

Steve mentioned that the Monk albums for Riverside weren't recorded that well. Reeves Studios, Plaza Studios, etc. were chosen because they were inexpensive. Still, the K2's for "Brilliant Corners" and "Monk's Music" are very good.

Personally, I prefer the DCC discs. The "character" of those discs appeal to me more, but I have no problem with picking up the K2's.

P.S. That first wave of Prestige K2's were made available to BMG, or at least some of the titles were, so don't let the "limited edition" label fool any of you to think that they're hard to come by.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: Camarillo ]