Mono vs. stereo mixes of early Elton John singles

There have been many threads in this forum about Elton John’s To Be Continued… (1990) 4-CD box set. These questions have been about mixes, edits, and mastering, and at times the 1992 Rare Masters box set has come into the discussion. These threads have all been a pleasure to read and learn from.

My specific issue is about the two early singles: “Lady Samantha” b/w “All Across the Havens” (1969) and “It’s Me That You Need” b/w “Just Like Strange Rain” (1969). I have an original Philips pressing of the “Lady Samantha” single (BF-1739 326 939 1F/2F) plus a black-rainbow label MCA 7” reissue of “Lady Samantha” with “It’s Me That You Need” on the back (MCA 60172). I also have the To Be Continued… (1990) and Rare Masters (1992) box sets as well as the 1995 remaster of Empty Sky (1969) which included all four songs as bonus tracks.

It's my understanding that these four tracks were originally released in mono, not stereo. Certainly my Philips and MCA 45s are mono mixes. “Lady Samantha” and “It’s Me That You Need” both appeared in mono on the TBC box set, and these sound exactly like their original mono mixes from the late 1960s.

When the Rare Masters box set was being prepared, however, “Lady Samantha” and “All Across the Havens” appeared in glorious stereo – both really great mixes, in my opinion, and I've always assumed that these were remixed especially for the box set. These stereo mixes were also used (it sounds, anyway) on the 1995 remaster of Empty Sky. On the other hand, on both the Rare Masters set and the Empty Sky remaster, “It’s Me That You Need” and “Just Like Strange Rain” remained in mono. A poster in an earlier thread theorized that, when they were preparing Rare Masters, those two songs’ original multitracks couldn’t be located for remixing and so they appeared in mono. That seemed like a reasonable explanation to me.

But then just last evening, I remembered that “Lady Samantha”, “It’s Me That You Need”, and “Just Like Strange Rain” all appeared in the UK-only DJM compilation, Lady Samantha, which was first issued on cassette in 1974 and then on LP in 1980. (It was also issued in the late 1980s on CD, using the 1980 cover art.)

Since I have the 1980 LP version, I played all three of those tracks and, lo and behold, they are—to my ears, anyway—in stereo! What I can’t tell, however, is whether those are “fake” (i.e., “electronically processed”) or legitimate stereo mixes. Does anyone else have a copy of the Lady Samantha compilation? If so, would you be willing to listen to those “stereo” mixes give me your opinion? Are they fake or legit stereo mixes? I compared the “Lady Samantha” mix to the 1992 stereo mix on Rare Masters, and it’s not the same mix in my opinion but definitely both are stereo.

Moreover, does anyone own a copy of the Lady Samantha compilation on compact disc? This would be the DJM pressing from West Germany. I’m interested in knowing whether the “stereo” mixes from the LP issue were also used on the CD.

 

Hmmmmm..... pretty sure my "Lady Samantha" CD has them all in mono. Listening to it sounds mono to me, but I haven't run it through anything yet to check for sure. I always thought they were mono on the cassette and LP as well. I can't seem to find my LP copy anywhere. Might have gotten lost during a break=up in the early 90s. Forgot all about even owning that one until just now! lol.

 

Thanks, guys. That saves me from having to purchase the CD, which I would have done had they'd turned out the be stereo mixes, legit or otherwise. (I happen to prefer stereo, and I'd take a "fake" stereo over a mono mix any day.)

I could be wrong about the Lady Samantha (1980) LP mixes, but I'm more than certain they're in stereo. Hopefully someone can offer a second opinion about those. The release number is DJM-22085, matrix number the same only "A1" and "B1" have been added for sides A and B, respectively. (The word "STRAWBERRY", in full caps, is also scrawled in the matrix ... perhaps this is because, although the LP appears black, when you hold it up to a light it takes on a very deep, red hue.)

Anyway, the only reason I bothered to double-check my LP copy was because the bottom of the LP sleeve includes this disclaimer: "This stereo record can be played on mono reproducers provided either a compatible or stereo cartridge wired for mono is fitted. Recent equipment may already be fitted with a suitable cartridge." That seemed to me an overly technical way of saying, "This LP is basically all in stereo, so if you have older equipment you may have to uprgrade."

 

Yes, but that doesn't preclude a few of the older tracks from being in mono nonetheless.

If I can find where I stashed the LP I'll check it out, but I really can't imagine that they found/created any new/separate mixes for the cassette/LP/CD versions of this. Could be that maybe you've got some issues with your equipment or even your ears that create the "stereo reprocessed from mono" effect by making one side sound more muffled or the EQ is different.

I have greater hearing loss in my right ear than my left which causes me to think I'm hearing this when I'm listening to mono through headphones.

 

Yes, it may just be my ears. Hence the need for a second opinion. But my gear is good, mid-range equipment (i.e., I'm not playing this on some little turntable sold at Barnes & Noble). And, on the other hand, DJM was engaging with a lot of EJ's back catalogue at that time anyway, reissuing singles, a 5-LP box set in 1979, and then, in 1981, an EP containing the three Lennon/MSG live tracks from 1974. The latter would have necessitated going back to EJ's multitracks since two of those tracks had never been mixed. (The 1981 mixes of the three Lennon tracks are quite different from the 1995 "Made in England" CD single/EP mixes or the 1996 Here and There reissue remixes.)

But yeah, I still see your point ... Why would DJM spend resources remixing three old songs that were never hits to begin with, just to please lovers of stereo? Hmm.

 

"Lady Samantha" was always such an odd after-thought of an album anyway---having only been on cassette originally. When the LP came out, it still had the same crossfade of the crowd noise at the end of "Rock and Roll Madonna" over the intro of "Whenever You're Ready", so I always presumed they just worked off the same master for the LP.

 

To Solly:

I own the 1980 DJM vinyl 'Lady Samantha' LP. "It's Me That You Need", "Into The Old Man's Shoes" & "Lady Samantha" are all NOT true stereo. I wouldn't say they were dead true mono either; more likely "very slightly reprocessed from mono sources".

Also, I seem to recall the original 1974 'Lady Samantha' tape was first issued on 8-track, not cassette. Can someone please correct me if I'm wrong? Thanks!

Andy

 

I believe it came out on both 8-track and cassette. I know I bought the cassette in '74.

 

To Videoman:

That's interesting to know! I was living in Schenectady/Albany NY and was a huge Elton John fan. I'll I could find was the 8-track of it as an import.

I had to purchase a used 8-track player to play it (I owned turntables & cassette decks). I believe it was worth it at the time; there are some great tunes on that comp.

Andy

 

Funny. I was in California and could only find the cassette, which meant the only way I could play it was on my little portable Panasonic recorder. I would have preferred the 8-track. But I loved that comp too.

 

Yes, I've always made the same assumption (although I've never heard the cassette or the CD issues myself). That's why it surprises me that, if that crossfade remained intact on the CD version of Lady Samantha (and I'm assuming it did -- did it?), that the mixes of those three early songs would be mono on the CD issue, because my ears are telling me that the LP version included stereo mixes. It would make sense to take from the same album master for all three formats.

I'm at work now, but tonight I'll give the LP another spin. I swear those are stereo mixes -- not good ones, mind you, but audibly stereo.

Okay, so in your opinion, while they're not true stereo (or even good stereo) mixes, that there's something processed about them? Okay.

But if we assume that DJM used the same master for all formats of the album (cassette, 8-track, LP, and CD), why would the LP include these "slightly processed" mixes (perhaps we should just say "enhanced"?) while the CD version, according to Kevin (an earlier poster, above) included the original mono's?

 

Not to change the topic, but anyone else notice how, on the Goodbye Yellow Brick Road 40th anniversary package, the intro for "Whenever You're Ready" includes a bit of the applause from "Rock and Roll Madonna"?

I was surprised when I heard that: Why would they have taken that track from the Lady Samantha album master, of all places? That Goodbye Yellow Brick Road box set was a travesty. What a missed opportunity to do some real archival digging and release something worth the time and money!

 

Well, again---so many things could create a "slightly reprocessed" effect when listening to a mono recording on a stereo system. A slightly mis-aligned cartridge or one speaker a bit out of whack. Also possible they didn't have both sides perfectly flat during the mastering of the LP so maybe there's a error there. Or the pressing could be a bit wonky. If listening through headphones, it could be the phones, or your ears or even simply that you just really WANT to hear it in stereo so you do.

But the more "slight" it is, the more I would believe these are just mono and not purposely altered.

 

I don't think there's a lot of unreleased Elton stuff lying around from those years.

 

To Solly:

I don't own the CD to compare, so I can't answer your question with accuracy. But I seem to recall circa 1974 the *trend* was to not 'Duophonic' up, or greatly reprocess the few mono tracks that would show up on stereo comps/hit collections (but many comps didn't want to leave them dead monaural either). When CDs came out the *trend* was to leave mono sources mono.

Another guess is that simply the azimuth was slightly off on the mono tracks on 'Lady Samantha'...

Andy

 

And, to be perfectly honest? If you so much prefer stereo that you'd take a 'fake' stereo over a mono mix? You could create your own just as easily and probably a better one using Audacity or a similar program.

 

Yes, true. It may be a manufacturing defect or, as has ben suggested, my hearing is off. It's just that I love "It's Me" and "Strange" rain so much that a DJM-issued stereo mix, true or reprocessed, would be great, either on a future release or, as I had hoped here, hidden on an old one.

I may have to, yes. Someone I know did that for the LP version of "Good Vibrations" since the deluxe Smile box didn't include one, nor did the mono/stereo reissue of Smiley Smile. We'll see.

 

I had the 8 track!!

 

I disagree. First, there's that alternate first (i.e., "frantic") version of "Saturday Night's Alright (For Fighting)", which was cut in Jamaica before they all retreated to France. The interview with EJ and Bernie Taupin in the liner notes of To Be Continued (1990) mentions this recording, and Taupin's commentary strongly suggested (to me, anyway) that the tape still exists.

There's also a series of post-Don't Shoot Me, pre-Yellow Brick Road piano demos (so, early '73 or thereabouts) that might have been considered. One ended up on Rare Masters ("Let Me Be Your Car"); most of the others still haven't been released but ended up on bootlegs (e.g., "Snookeroo"). Somewhere in there is a piano demo of "Lonnie and Josie", which EJ later gave to Kiki Dee to record for her Loving and Free (1973) album. Rumor has it (and yes, only a rumor; I've never heard this recording myself) EJ and the band cut a basic version of "Lonnie and Josie" during the Yellow Brick Road sessions at the Chateau.

There are also alternate mixes of some tracks (notably "Funeral For a Friend") from the early 1980s. Gus Dudgeon did these when preparing The Superior Sound compilation. Some EJ collectors have these, but many don't. The Greg Penny acoustic remix of "Candle in the Wind" from 2003 is interesting, and yes it was included on the 2014 box set. But why not try remixing some of the other tracks? How about "Bennie" the way it was originally intended, i.e. without the applause sound effects?

Moreover, the 30th anniversary package from 2003 included facsimile copies of the tracking sheets from the 1973 sessions. Some tracks go quite a bit longer in their original, unmixed forms, most notably "Dirty Little Girl". How about an extended mix of that and perhaps a few of the others, like we got for "Razor Face" on the 5.1 issue of Madman? And maybe some studio chatter?

Yes, a lot of the above is grasping at straws, as they say. But anything would have been better than those cover versions. Even if EJ himself had pulled a Randy Newman and re-recorded some of those songs anew, just him and a piano? (Of course, there are some folks who like those cover versions.) I don't know...

 

A few loose remarks on some of the above :

The 1978 edition of Music Master lists the Lady Samantha cassette and cartridge as a July 1976 release.
It's not a UK-only release. I also have a French vinyl copy (Vogue 095055), also issued 1980.
I checked the 3 tracks on my German DJM CD and can only confirm they're in mono.

 

Thanks. I got the date (1974) from the Lewisohn discography, I think. And the version I understand to be the original, 1974 version (cassette) gives a 1974 copyright date. (I tried attaching a photo ... but I can't figure out how to do that here.)

As for its UK-only status, that may have been the original release, and the 1980 reissue included territory outside of the UK(?).

 

I know. Just giving it for what it's worth... But you can't always rely on those copyright dates on covers. Sometimes they only give the original copyright date of the songs.
BTW, this is the Australian version of the album :

If you wanna include photos, open an account on Photobucket (or similar), upload your photos there and a link will appear which you can copy onto these pages here. All very simple.

 

The UK cassette definitely came out in autumn 1974. I remember buying it then.

 

I must admit I have never had any interest in cassettes or cartridges, but could there have been a reissue in 1976 ?