My new Harbeth SHL5 plus

You should post some of the pictures on the Harbeth website. I'd love to read the suggestions from AS if he decided to chime in.

 

I suggest you try to complete the live end / dead end listening environment you have started by treating the walls behind the speakers. I think those early reflections might be the issue. If you are stuck with this arrangement, of the speakers so close to the back wall, those early reflections are not helping. The TV screen between the speakers at the tweeter and mid-range height also should be dealt with when not watching TV.

 

First off...congrats on the speakers. I have auditioned the speakers at shows the past several years and I really like them.

Secondly, both sets of measurements (at the listening position and from 1 M away) are utterly superb for any loudspeaker's in-room response. You won't find much better with any other speakers.

With that said, have you tried listening and measuring with the grilles on? The grilles of the Harbeths (and many other BBC type speakers) are designed to flatten (small) response peaks in the very area that seems prominent to your ears.

If you are unable to listen with the grilles on, I would suggest adding felt rings around both tweeters. The flat baffle around the tweeters acts as an acoustic lens, amplifying output. Felting will counteract this. Felting should flatten the peak just as the grille does.

 

I would also like to see what AS says, and it might not be what I've been saying, that the room/arrangement is the problem -- AS has his own ideas, and surely knows his speakers. You might also want to send the pix to Fidelis (or the Canadian importer, if not Fidelis). They were very helpful with the setup of the M30s in my room.

 

I thought the "Live End" of a LEDE setup is supposed to be the speaker end of the room, not the listening end?

Studios use damping all around the monitor speakers, but that sort of approach generally kills the sound of speakers in a home listening environment.

I don't think the OP is getting the best out of his SHL5 speakers. His suggestions that the bed and the wall proximities are not interfering are difficult to reconcile.

 

Freedom of belief....

 

I would not bother with measurements, and I would stick with what I hear. If I hear a peak or hardness I don't care for, it is something that I would try to deal with regardless of any measurement. It does not hurt to try different room placement or speaker placement (including change to toe-in or tilt or height of speaker). As for a different height for the stand, it is hard to say whether lower or higher would be better or worse; you should try to find ways to test alternatives before buying new stands. Even tiny changes in placement will make a big difference, particularly in a small room. The change would be primarily in the bass response, but, a change in bass can be perceived as a change in the midrange and top end because the overall balance will shift.

It does not hurt to experiment with removing some of the room treatment. Theory notwithstanding, room treatment is a matter of trial and error, and one can quite easily mess up a room with overtreatment. I've heard improvements when someone REMOVED the sound absorber placed to catch the first reflection in a small room, so it is simply not the case that it always helps to either absorb or diffuse first reflections. I've heard the same with bass traps too.

One way to hear whether it is the room or the system causing a problem is to do some listening in the near field. This means sitting fairly close to the speaker to make the direct sound from the speaker dominate over room reflections. If you hear the same problem, you know that it is at least partly a system issue and not a room issue that has to be addressed. This might be something that can be addressed by use of different cabling, or more drastically, by use of different components.

 

Oh, OK, I see what you mean now. Coupla thoughts:

1. Your chart shows that at the listening position, there's a bit of a hump in the 1 kHz to 2 kHz range. You say that's the room, not the speakers. Fair enough, but it's still there! So if you're certain it's the room, not the speakers, you need to change the speaker positioning or do some room treatment to get rid of it.

2. My Harbeths are the previous model, the SHL5 (without the Plus). I remember that Alan Shaw did a lot of work on the crossover for the Plus and that was held up as the big difference between the old and the new. Coincidentally I just did some Room EQ tests on my old Harbeths and these showed a big midrange dip at the crossover point, which did not change regardless of what position I put the speakers in:



I think the new Harbeths, with their improved crossover, attempted to fill in that hole and from your readings, they have certainly done that. But I wonder whether, in doing so, they have given a slightly harder edge to that part of the frequency range, which of course is where the human ear is most sensitive. How you react to that would depend on what you're used to and what sort of sound you prefer.

Incidentally, I suppose ideally you really ought to do separate L and R readings for that nearfield test to get an accurate result.

 

Bed in front of my monitors, how bad can this be? - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community

 

What is Speaker Boundary Interference? - Acoustic Frontiers

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker-placement-boundary-interference/

Option 2: Place speakers as close as possible to the front wall (where flush mounting is the ideal)
Even if you can’t flush mount your monitors, you can still take advantage of proximity to the wall behind the speaker.

This is your second best choice for studio monitor placement. It’s what I generally recommend for home studio setups that use nearfield monitors (unless you’re using very small* speakers).

*Small speakers are less directional at mid frequencies, which may cause significant low-mid frequency energy to radiate backward and reflect off the wall behind the speakers. This would shift the cancellation dip to the low-mid band, causing audible coloration.

As you move your speakers closer to the wall, the cancellation notch in your frequency response moves to higher frequencies.

That’s great news because higher frequencies are more directional (they radiate less energy backward), and they are easier to manage using acoustic treatment.

Generally, a gap of 0 to 8 inches (0 to 20 cm) between your speakers and front wall is a good starting point to minimize coloration caused by SBIR. But, check your loudspeaker specs for a recommended minimum distance.

For example, Genelec recommends a minimum distance of 2 inches (5 cm) to allow for amplifier cooling and rear opening sound radiation.

At very close distances, 4 inch thick absorptive acoustic panels behind the speakers may help tame the cancellation notch. Broadband bass traps would be better. As speaker-wall distance increases, treatment becomes less practical.

The effectiveness of absorption behind your speakers also depends on speaker directivity. If you’re using dipole speakers (used in some hi-fi setups), absorption will help more than if you’re using monopole speakers. Most speakers are monopole.

Quick tip: Placing your speakers close to the front wall helps drive them, providing more output and less distortion. However, it also causes low shelving, a boost in the bass response (akin to the proximity effect that happens when you place a sound source close to a directional microphone). You can easily tame this with EQ. Some speakers have boundary gain compensation (BGC) control, which lets you apply an approximate correction. Better yet, you can use a calibrator to create an EQ curve that accurately compensates for the boundary effects you’re experiencing.

SBIR - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community

 

The theory pages on the Acoustic Frontier web site are all very interesting (well, sort of), and mostly completely non-applicable to your speaker placement situation because of the big bed dominating the room (with the speakers apparently positioned less than half a metre from the end of the bed). Most of the theory you're quoting also only works in rooms with lots of open space, which is also something that you do not have.

The Genelec stuff is equally inapplicable because it is directly - absolutely directly - related to active and/or powered Genelec studio monitors, something else you also don't have (you've got Harbeth SHL5+, unless I miss my guess). None of the Genelec active monitor or powered monitor placement recommendations apply in any way to your Harbeths. I'm not sure why you keep quoting that stuff - it's irrelevant. You're not posting about small active/powered studio monitors positioned in a sound-deadened mixing or production studio.

Presumably, you're setting up a music listening room, not a studio mixing/production configuration. Those two kinds of setups are dramatically different because the speaker designs are dramatically different, because one type of speaker contains amplifiers and the other does not, and because one type of speaker (the active/powered studio monitors) are specifically designed to be placed close to the wall behind them while the other type of speaker (your SHL5+) is emphatically not.

 

politely, from what I see, you have very superficial understanding of room acoustic.
SPEAKER BOUNDARY INTERFERENCE - Google Search
The theory pages on the Acoustic Frontier web site are all very interesting
SBIR problems are well known phenomena that will degrade performance in a listening room as much as in a studio.
What is Speaker Boundary Interference? - Acoustic Frontiers
mostly completely non-applicable to your speaker placement situation because of the big bed dominating the room
SBIR issue and the bed has absolutely no connection. have you read the links I linked about SBIR?

(with the speakers apparently positioned less than half a metre from the end of the bed)
can you explain clearly the supposed problem that the bed create? you are very vague with what actually the bed do that you see as problematic. So far, GIK acoustic have posted in the thread I have open and he said that the bed is actually beneficial:
Bed in front of my monitors, how bad can this be? - Gearslutz Pro Audio Community

Most of the theory you're quoting also only works in rooms with lots of open space, which is also something that you do not have.
false acoustic problems such as sbir will be detrimental for the listening experience in a studio or listening room. SBIR again has nothing to do with the space. its about the cancellation dip created by the wall behind the monitors, not about whats in front.

again, please explain clearly what are the actual acoustic problems that you think the bed creates.

The Genelec stuff is equally inapplicable because it is directly - absolutely directly - related to active and/or powered Genelec studio monitors
false, SBIR problems affect passive and active speakers the same way.

 

Great, now I have to buy a bed to put in my living room along with the stereo!

 

@ Threadstarter: Have you considered a convertible sofa? Or sleeping standing up? Only solutions to your dire predicament.

 

can you explain clearly the supposed problem that the bed create?GIK acoustic said:"That's one way to solve floor reflections!"Gearslutz Pro Audio Community - View Single Post - Bed in front of my monitors, how bad can this be?

 

This, my good man, is a dead parrot! It's bloody deceased!

No it's not sir. It's just resting.

I tried my best, but I'm outta this one for now.

 

Asked and answered (clearly) by me and (even more clearly) by several others already.

 

The large bed in the small room, in such close proximity to the speakers, absorbs an enormous of sound in a wide frequency range. The large bed in such close proximity to the speakers in the small room also partially interferes with the dispersion pattern of the speakers.

Temporarily remove the bed from the room. Position the arm chair in what would be your normal bedtop listening position in the room. Play some music and revel in the gorgeous sound emanating from the SHL5+. You will hear how great the speakers truly are. Imaging, depth of field, clarity and detail will immerse you in the music.

Then put the big bed back in the room and play some music. You will hear poop.

 

I don't think he was seriously saying that was a beneficial arrangement, but believe what you want. before you buy more gear you should get a bigger house or something IMO. Bed in that position is for non-critical listening only, like when you are, uh, sleeping. but if you really think its not affecting the sound OK.

 

You can't get to the chair without walking/climbing/rolling over it?

 

Harbeth Super HL5plus loudspeaker Measurements

 

LOL

 

Certainly not achieved with a bed in the way

 

I'd be veery courious to hear what Alan Shaw would have to say.
He MAY send a check and ask for his speakers back. LOL.