Neil Young readies Pono music service for expansion Part 3

There are two paths here. 1. Equipment snobbery used ultimately for bullying. And 2. Equipment profiles used to gain insights on how resolving one's system is and how that may be shading an opinion.

The latter is the only legitimate path.

Think about the Pioneer universal players for instance. Many found in the early days of sacd debate that they preferred the pcm output but we later discovered the machines converted dsd to pcm so the comparison was flawed.

 

Also worth considering that various early SACD's were poor transfers, some were even from low-res sources. Today we have much better quality reissues on the format.

 

I don't know Lee. I would like to believe you, but my experience with the Hugo and Audeze LCD-X cans doesn't support what you just said about Hi Res over redbook, even from my own recordings with a great ADC. It's a coin toss at this point with mastering being the difference.

 

Which is a flowery way of saying your opinion has more merit than others.

 

Even the Hugo converts DSD to PCM. There are only a few dacs that are true DSD dacs. I actually find SACD to have it's own sound signature from my listening. It seems unnatural, dark, not live, but is very clean. It's definitely different compared to PCM.

 

I think one thing that is usually overlooked in these (frustrating) discussions is equipment and configuration.

Hardware and properly configured software is necessary to hear the (considerable, IMO) benefits of 24-bit and/or higher sampling rates.
One misconfiguration or poor component (i.e. using the internal PC chip instead of a substantial DAC, or not configuring playback software for 192, etc.), and the benefits of Hi-Res or higher sampling rates can go out the window. Mastering, not so much.

But on a proper set up, Hi-Res is great improvement, IMO and higher sampling rate a lesser improvement, but an improvement.

Now back to Pono (that is what is supposed to be discussed here, correct?).

I'm excited to get my pre-ordered player. I fully expect a large improvement when listening to the same (mostly 24-bit) files I currently listen to on an iPod classic while at work.

I'm also excited about what should be an influx of additional title sin the Pono store not currently available in Hi-Res.
For example, the Eagles signature Pono player will come with a 24/192 version of "Long Road Out Of Eden." The Elton John device reportedly will have a 24/44.1 version of "The Diving Board". The Foo Fighters will include a 24/44.1 version of their debut and a 24/192 version of "Wasting Light".

 

I agree 100% . We can only talk about this thing properly when experienced personally. Remember only 10 years ago having a large flat screen TV was seen as strange & elitist. If it gives the chance or create competition of genuine audiophile sound on the go or at home for an affordable price I am all for it .

 

Not at all. It is simply saying that experience matters.

 

Sure. And I'm saying that sometimes "experience" breeds hubris.

 

If you listen to Todd Garfinkle's ma recordings in pure dsd then you will feel differently. The nativedsd site will have them soon. Dsd is not dark sounding at all.

As far as the Hugo goes, I can only share that higher sampling rates sounded better in my system.

 

I have a strong opinion on this subject because it has been formed from hirez outperformance in many situations with a wide variety of music, gear, and recording techniques. I have been diplomatic here so I see no hubris.

 

I was talking about the ideological view that states those who can't hear the difference between Redbook and higher sampling rates either don't have proper "listening skills" or have systems that "aren't resolving enough". That is a rather conceited take on an area of science that has a great deal of technical nuance in my opinion.

 

Agree to disagree. Two points:

1. A higher resolution system does mean that the differences between 16/44 and 24/96 will be more easily heard, just like a Porsche will pull you back into the seat more on acceleration. It's not a snob thing as one can assemble a decently resolving system for affordable money these days.

2. Critical listening skills are a reality. It's not a snob thing around pointing to some mythical "golden ears" where only their opinion counts. Some experience and training go a long way to improving the skill and anyone can be trained.

 

This really is the crux of the matter. Am I correct that your view is that those who haven't heard or don't believe that PCM sampling rates above Redbook make an audible difference lack those skills?

 

I'm going to politely disagree on point number 1, Lee. I think that todays new higher end DAC's (like Hugo, PS Audio), are doing a much better job, than ever before, on 16 bit audio. In fact, so good, that I'm not sure there is that much difference in Red Book over Hi Res, mastering being the same.
I would now say that a lesser resolving system is more likely to notice a difference between Redbook and Hi Res.

 

Truth is, I want to believe people can hear a difference between a 24/96 file and the same thing downsampled to CD resolution. But I've never seen a single blind test that proved anyone could. Supposedly, the height of human hearing is ~20khz anyway, making 44.1khz sampling rate more than enough.

 

I'll have to check it out. Don't get me wrong, I actually like the DSD preferable on some recordings, especially with the synergy of my system. The darkness goes well with my Hugo/LCD-X's. Ahh, listening to an old Bowie SACD, Let's Dance. Very good. It's a shame that Pono won't offer a DSD capability, choices are good. Good masterings can be in many different formats.

 

The Light Harmonic portables will offer DSD playback. People who want DSD will be getting some more choices in portable players. Which is good.

 

The downsampling doesn't make sense as I have said here before. All you are doing is testing at least in part the downsampling algorithm.

What the best tests deploy is a live event captured simultaneously to 16/44 and 24/96 and play them back (and if you are really detailed on a variety of DACs) and find which came closest to the live even. It's the 24/96 file. Every time.

 

Great DACs are narrowing the gap a bit but it is still there. With the Chord Hugo, Oppo HA-1, and Benchmark DAC2, I heard great 16/44 but the corresponding hirez files were always even better.

 

I'm only saying that good listening skills are an important factor. Same for deploying good listening to determine the best mastered CDs.

 

Ahh, but we don't just "hear" music, or any sound for that matter, we feel it too. Deaf people experience this all the time.

Arguments and debates on the merits of Hi-rez vs. redbook aside, if you don't believe it, don't buy it. I'm not sure why you, or any other doubters, are so compelled to convince the believers otherwise. This is, after all, a thread about a specific Hi-rez portable player.

 

Yes, no one is forcing anyone to buy anything.

 

Andrew Donald (Member)
A few colleagues and I spent this evening with a VP from AudioQuest, who was previously at Ayre Acoustics. After having critically listened to both an Astell&Kern AK120, and a PonoPlayer, his opinion is that the PonoPlayer sounds considerably better! That's brilliant!

Two days ago at 11:24 PM ·
Pedram Abrari (PonoMusic), Andreas Callendal (Member), Eugene Vivino (Member), and

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
@Andrew Donald (Member) THAT is very good news indeed. As an AK120 user, I was hoping that Pono would knock it into a cocked hat. Now I want to hear it for myself.

Drew Karpinski (Member)
Good info...thanks

cody stanton (Member)
@Andrew Donald (Member)
Any comments on what music, headphones, and/or stereo system were used for the comparison? I love hearing (drooling over) what kind of equipment and music people in the industry use..

Ian Kerr (Member)
@Ian Kendrick (Moderator) I have never heard that saying before but I am going to use it at least a dozen times today!
Also, I think the PonoPlayer will knock many of it's competitors into cocked hats everywhere!

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
@Ian Kerr (Member)http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/knocked-into-a-cocked-hat.html

Peter Rustin (Member)
@Ian Kendrick (Moderator) we Anglophiles think it's brill that you define terms!

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
@Peter Rustin (Member).. .We have so many odd expressions and I know that they are not familiar to many. Including many from the UK. And as someone of that persuasion I know I am in the very significant minority. )

Robert Mais (Member)
That is one aspect I liked about traveling in the UK, the language expressions made me feel like I was define toy in a foreign country. You really had to think about what was said, over and over.

Scott Smith (Member)
@Robert Mais (Member) Now that's one you'll have to define: ".... define toy in a foreign country."

Robert Mais (Member)
@Scott Smith (Member). It was sort of a play on words in that you would need a definition of what was said and was the person perhaps toying with you because the British have such a brilliant sense of humor.

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
A bit of topic but.....

There was a great TV series on the history of English and a few books too. It is a fascinating story and shows that the language has had a huge amount of other languages influencing it, contributing to it and modifying it. Hence all the different spellings and pronunciations. Are there 7 or 9 different ways you can pronounce "ough" as part of a word?

Its resilience and ability to be inclusive has made it viable in circumstances when other languages would have succumbed.

And don't get me started on dialects...

Shakespeare has a lot to do with it - he must have had an English teacher at some point. The Ken Robinson video in the Creativity group has a great story...
quoting shakespeare

@Robert Mais (Member) Sorry....maybe should have used a ;-) as a tag. (wink wink, nudge nudge, knowwhatimean, knowwhatimean)Scott Smith (Member)

Robert Mais (Member)
@Scott Smith (Member). Actually I understood you perfectly and thought it was funny. Thank You.

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
Think we should get back on topic... If the Pono player does indeed do for an AK120, then that is very good news indeed. Doesn't have the functionality of the AK, but I rarely use it all anyway. A basic player that sounds better for a quarter of the price seems like a good deal to me...

Andrew Donald (Member)
@cody stanton (Member) No, there was no mention of the headphones used or the music chosen during the audition.

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
@Robert Mais (Member) Good question. They are positioned as a no compromise device I guess. Dual DACs, USB DAC capability, optical in, excellent headphone amplifier (although there are those who would disagree - Red Wine Audio do a good trade in upgrades). Beautifully made. And early in the market. And 2 micro SD card slots. The AK240 is a lot more expensive again.

I am very happy with mine, had to sell someold hifi kit to afford it. It drives my headphones very well - have reappraised that recently and am happier than I was with it now.

The Pono player won't do the USB DAC or optical connect, only has 1 micro SD card - but it's sound quality that matters I reckon. And affordability. When I am out walking or travelling that's what I am interested in. Win/win for Pono by the sounds of it. Oh, and it has the balanced output option too.

Robert Mais (Member)
@Ian Kendrick (Moderator) Thanks for the info. Am really hoping sound quality on the Pono is exceptional.

Ian Kendrick (Moderator)
I think we all are...

Andreas Callendal (Member)
@Pedram Abrari (PonoMusic) I find it very exciting that the first comparison report indicates that the PonoPlayer sounds considerably better than the AK120.
Have you listening to what probably is the best portable player on the market - the AK240 and if so, how does it compare? This should be the next player to compare the PonoPlayer to. The AK240 is a cool $2500, which we should keep in mind...

Pedram Abrari (PonoMusic)
We didn't design the PonoPlayer by focusing on other players in the market. We designed it to sound phenomenal and to be affordable. The market comparisons will take care of themselves and chips will fall where they may. What is definitely true is that producing analog sound from a digital audio format is part science and part art. This is why different players can sound so different playing the same music. It all revolves around your design philosophy. Here's some feedback from Charlie Hansen the chief designer and founder of Ayre:

All products designed by Ayre (since its inception 21 years ago) have no negative feedback. This results in a more natural sound because feedback can only attempt to correct for an error after it has occurred -- clearly an impossibility. If negative feedback actually worked as people claim, then all products would sound the same because the negative feedback would eliminate the errors. But not all amplifiers sound the same, so feedback is clearly not the answer!

In the PonoPlayer, Ayre began their work by designing the circuitry after the main processor retrieves the audio data from the memory. They chose the just-released version of ESS's top-of-the-line ES9018M. It has two channels, comes in a very small package (5 mm square), and is extremely customizable, able to tackle the rigors of sensitive, low-level signal path design.

The filter generally favored by Ayre is a minimum-phase digital filter (to eliminate pre-ringing), with a "slow" roll-off, to minimize the overall amount of ringing (ringing can be thought of as an oscillation in the digital signal, causing all sorts of errors if misconstrued as actual signal to be converted to analog, which is engineer-speak for music). In other words the Pono design has none of the digital artifacts (digital artifacts also add to distortion and occlude signal) at all. The DAC chip’s output comes in the form of a current. So Ayre designed a proprietary, fully discrete, fully-balanced, zero-feedback current-to-voltage stage. This then goes to a fully discrete, zero-feedback buffer stage to drive both the headphone output and the line stage output.

 

Is there a UK/EU distributor for pono? Are UK backers facing customs charges when the first batches come through?