Neutral and accurate loudspeakers

Irony.

D.D.

 

Well I didn't say they were the best ever now did I. You see if you could actually read and think you would note that I like them and then I point to other people who like them. Indeed, I point to reviewers who have went way over the top in liking them. I note that this occurs with speakers like Magnepan (which I don't care for) but that people rave - fair enough. With Amphion - zero. Show me the over the top reviews or best of show winner or something. Show me a credible source that thinks they're in the "elite" group of loudspeakers. Then Irony will apply.

 

Hmm once again - the argument was made with regards to the numbers of speakers sold in correlation to numbers of reviewers "experts" who have purchased said speakers as I noted that for AN speakers is not their main business but they are going up against dedicated speaker makers who are being bought at lower numbers by the experts. And even the reviewers - not all of them have heard AN - it's not nearly as common as B&W so while most all reviewers have heard at least one set of B&Ws in their life time - that isn't true for them hearing an AN - and they're not buying what they don't hear.

Granted I follow them more because I own them but on our staff at one point 5 of our reviewers owned the AN E. Stereophile had 3 and a fourth was WES who felt it was the best he heard. Wes unfortunately had a bad accident and retired from Stereophile. enjoythemusics editor has the AN J, several others have/had the E, Hi-fi Critic, Hi-Fi Choice, Soundstage, Positive Feedback, Audiophile, Hi-fi review, 6 moons all have at least one reviewer who owns the AN E.

Sure other reviewers may have Wilson, Quad, Magnepan, Sonus Faber, B&W etc but these guys are far bigger companies selling in far bigger numbers - they're strongly marketed. But my point is that AN is a small fry compared to some of those and yet the have a pretty big presence with people who by and large hear a lot more stuff than the average person. Thaat isn't just coincidence - it means the speakers are pretty damn good. Regardless if at a show or two some forumer wasn't impressed with their 5 minuter audition with music they were unfamiliar with.

 

Snark. And then more irony. Way to mix up your pitches.
You've burdened every hifi forum on the internet with your incessant AN fanboy chanting and tambourine shaking. Kudos.

D.D.

 

why do we keep on talking about Amphion?
I had AN J lx, the elite speaker, and I didnt like them and couldnt get rid of them fast enough. why do you want to imply that speaker A is better then speaker B? its childish. some prefer speaker A, some B. you seem to want to present your opinion as FACT.

So you did listen to the amphion pro line? I hate to admit but I dont really trust you anymore. your attitude is such I wouldnt be surprised youd lie to prove a point.

The Audio Beat - RMAF 2010 - Best of Show - Amphion, Vitus Audio » amphion best of show
SoundStage! Equipment Review - Amphion Argon3 Loudspeakers (7/2010) » the reviewer bought the pair
Users | Amphion » many grammy, emmys and awards winners use amphion pro line.
Amphion... Beautiful - Gearslutz.com » the longest monitor thread of all time at the most important pro forum on the net is about the amphion pro line.
High end nearfield test - Gearslutz.com » the biggest high end nearfield shoot out. the OP tested 30 monitors from the best brand around. he ended up with geithain and Amphion and sold his 40k PMC.

Amphion have been compared many times to the "elite" and many prefers them or at least equals much pricier models from PMC, ATC, B&W, Quested, ect.

I dont think Amphion are the best speaker in the world: that would be crazy. I could live happily with many other speakers, im sure. I just have not so far heard a better speaker for the money and for my taste.

 

But as I noted some of these reviews have moved on to other speakers - I don't say that there is nothing else - but that they have been widely liked/loved.

 

Or it could also mean that they fit a certain niche / flavor that landed smack in the strike zone of the "reviewing crowd" demographic, including being suitable for their particular musical preferences.
I don't want to categorize with qualifying comments like the tweed jacket, lounge slippers and Clan MacGregor on the rocks set but point implied nonetheless. They have a particular flavor and that flavor is not for everybody. One man's bland is another man's comforting euphoria.
Below are two videos that seem to capture the sound quality of two competing speakers.
The first one, the Audio Note, captures in its essence why I left the room after 5 minutes or so. Warm and smooth, burnished detail, thickly veiled.
The second one captures the essence of the room that was my favorite at Axpona last year, the Vinnie Rossi / Harbeth room. The detail and clarity shines through like an open window on a beautiful day.



Vinnie Rossi LIO amplifiers, Harbeth, Fidelis AV »

 

Well that's fine - I find you to be truth challenged.
I have not heard the $21,000 Amphion from Audio Beat (maybe I need to) - I have only heard the following speakers from Amphion:

Amphion ION
Amphion Helium
Both are awful and what hi-fi who like everything agree with me.

Amphion Argon 1 and 3
Amphion One/18
Much better but way way overpriced for the sound quality IMO

If these are not the good models then direct me to which Argon you think is the model that I need to listen to. Give me your three favorite models in case the dealers here do not have your top choice in stock. I have no problem auditioning stuff people feel strongly about. That's what I do. Who knows maybe they will convince me - the above 5 models however did not. The Soundstage reviewer did buy them - and he seems to love them - has reviewed several pairs - the trouble is his preferences are not in line with mine looking at his amplifier and source choices. His ear is not an ear that I would go by. Which is fine perhaps my ear is not an ear he would go by.

 

So did you listen to the Black Sabbath AN J recording above. We can't be relying too much on Youtube reproduced sound. I probably should't have to point out that the AN E in your video is much further away from the camera mic while the Harbeth is very close - I suppose you don't get that that would have an influence on the recorded sound? more below

But it illustrates that they sound quite a lot different from one recording to the next. I didn't like the sound of the AN E in the video posted but then I didn't like the Harbeth video you posted either - both videos do an injustice to how both speakers sound in real life. If one wants to do a comparison - Soundhounds - my dealer in Victoria is the only dealer I know of that carries both lines - so you can audition (as I have done) both speakers in the same room. Something tells me Avanti - that you have never heard the Harbeth and AN E in the same room at the same time with the same gear - yes or no?

And part of the problem with youtube is being allowed the rights to play music - Peter Breuninger has permission from Anne Bisson for example to play her music - not everyone allows this due to copyright.

For a closer to the mic sound you get far more treble content - although his mic still isn't good - all these home camera/phone recordings are generally terrible. Nevertheless, it quasi captures the fact that there is high treble content and solid differentiated bass. Still I have this recording and his video sounds pretty terrible for Audio Note

Audio Note, The Ozone Percussion Group »

It's fine if you like Harbeth more - I like Harbeth as well. I think of my top 5 domestically reasonable loudspeakers and Harbeth would probably be in that group. The ridiculous thing is that the AN E and M40 are not a helluva lot different. In many ways they share a sonic aesthetic - It makes more sense to me when someone says they Love panels or Wilsons and hate AN Es than Harbeth fans - that is a head scratcher - even the Stereophile measurements indicate they they are quite similar. When Harbeths trade their Harbeths in for AN E's it's not because it's a wholesale change - it's because they want to retain elements of the Harbeth while adding something to the equation.

As Bob Neil notes Amherst Audio | The Sound of Music »

 

I don't think anyone will "win" this argument because the most you can say, absent being in the same room with the same system at the same time together (and perhaps disagreeing on what you prefer) is that:
the components, as assembled in that particular system/room, have the following attributes;
compared to some other combination of equipment (whether changing amp, speaker or both), they yield certain described differences;
program material makes a significant difference in presentation;
each of us desire certain attributes -whether is it clarity, or imaging, or some other aspect of reproduced sound that makes us prefer one kind of presentation to another;
it's pretty hard to reduce something to an absolute truth in this field, hence all the differences between the objective and subjective schools, analog v. digital, cables do or don't make a difference, etc.
I think the most any of us can offer is an unvarnished view of what we heard, and the variables and qualifications to the listening session or set-up and encourage other readers/listeners to do their own due diligence.

I have known a lot of reviewers over the years, and most were pretty earnest in what they tried to do. It's not an easy task. On the other hand, I think trying to convince someone-whether it is a reader or forum participant--that one knows better is very off-putting. As long as a reviewer admits to certain preferences or biases (over and above the qualifications re room, program material and associated equipment), I can easily accept a reviewer's conclusion that he or she preferred X.

 

I have not looked at the article yet, but I want to disagree with this comment about what Qvortrup claims about Audio Note speakers. It's true he feels strongly that every recording should reveal it's flaws through AN speakers, but that doesn't mean flawed recordings should sound bad. The GOOD in each recording should ALSO be so well reproduced that this should be enough for it to "shine" in its own right.

I heard compressed, rolled-off, and noisy 78 transcriptions sound extremely involving in Qvortup's home system, merely because the AN equipment still communicated the music with romance and "PRAT". Difficult to explain, but there was "shine" in every recording played despite each "shine" being very different.

 

I have had a similar experience several times--not necessarily involving Audio Note gear, but ancient records- pre-War transcriptions with extremely limited bandwidth, or acetates crudely cut in the pre-tape era. Once they were "cleaned up" using some restoration techniques that admittedly involved some digital processing (yikes, heaven forfend, I'm an analog guy), these things sounded positively "alive." Great kick drum dynamics and air. Guitar sounds in the room. Hardly state of the art, let alone "purist" in the audiophile sense, but it was an eye (or ear) opener for me.

 

I really enjoyed that article. Thanks for sharing.

"...design for magic" indeed.

 

For some reason this thread has made me dislike AN speakers, and I haven´t even heard them.

 

This thread is not about AN speakers, nor what any particular speakers sound like. It is about the motives and goals of a speaker designer. It just happens to include comments from two very intense fans of AN speakers and the stated goals of these speakers' designer(s).

So, I think your "reason" is that you merely resent people sharing their enthusiasm about something with which you have no experience. You've never heard an AN speaker? So how can you judge those of us who have, and were very impressed, this way? :

I don't think Richard or I ever mentioned that AN is "the best choice" for everyone. We discussed the designers' philosophy about design and how this relates to what we hear through those speakers.

Yes, I sell them. Does that mean I cannot also like them very much, and respect their design goals, without your critizism of my motives?

 

Warren - as a reviewer if I like something too much it means I can't be objective - I have to review a Ford Fistava with the same love and zeal as I would reviewing a Bughatti and if I go too far in praise of the latter then I'm a biased shill. People simply feel that if you like something a LOT then there has to be a conspiracy. And you - heck you sell them - so you have no chance at all of being an objective individual.

It gets way out of hand - you can actually be a business person AND have passion for what you sell. I tried sales - I lasted 3 days because I was too honest with people. A family comes into the shop to spend $500 on a stereo that's all they had and I could not help telling them that down the street there was something much better for $350. This was my last day because I didn't want to screw the store owner but I didn't want to see the family get rooked by a worse product.

The ONLY way I would be able to survive in any sales job is if I was selling stuff that I would actually buy. If I had to carry something else - it would be stuff that is reliable and deemed good by many people and competent enough that I could sleep at night.

The people who claim they won't buy something because of these sorts of discussions were never buying it anyway. Soundhounds in Victoria was always happy with these kinds of threads because they had dozens of people go into their shop telling them about that "nut on the forum" going on about them. So they had people come in and audition if nothing else so they could come and blast me. But if 12 of these guys go in, who otherwise would never go in, and even if just 1 person winds up buying a pair (or even buys a competing product) then they get more traffic and more sales. The argument itself on these forums winds up being free advertising for dealers and the manufacturer (or competing manufacturers). So the more these people go back and forth with me the more they help Audio Note make sales - so there is some irony.

 

Not at all Warren, but they do seem to be dictating a lot of this thread...disproportionately so, IMO.

 

That's my fault - I become a bit of a dog with a bone on AN - and tend not to let it go.

 

Richard: My comment above had nothing to do with the merit of AN speakers. In fact, I don't know how anyone can make an assessment without hearing the gear for themselves. Words and videos only take the reader/viewer so far and overselling, condescension or just churning up controversy rarely work in my experience for any high-end (or even budget) product. Apropos your remark about Bugatti, I was in the middle of a transaction for an expensive older exotic car when the manager of the dealership thought it incumbent to "sell" me. After that call, which I tried to get off of as quickly as I could, I contacted the salesman and asked him to keep his manager on a leash- because it was actually turning me against the deal, which was otherwise done in my mind. (I did wind up buying the car and never spoke to the manager again). This has nothing to do with the merits, but with the tone and attitude. Even Fremer ( who can be a bit of a lunatic sometimes in going after people), seems to be moderate in his views on equipment or sound recordings when pressed- he reports, you decide. I think it speaks to credibility. Nothing against AN or Warren. I was involved in the thread earlier only because I had some comments about the more general topic but commenting that folks will never buy anyway isn't a good way to engage those who can and might. (I know Peter B. has the "Level 5" AN system set up right now -whatever that is, and I may wrangle myself an invite to go listen to it- not because of this thread, or even because I'm in the market- I'm not).

 

Bill - thanks for the reasoned response.

I don't think I am selling anything - I describe something I like - back in 1993 I was badgering my friends to see Schindler's List because I absolutely loved the movie and I knew that a 3 hour black and white holocaust film that opened in my area on Christmas Day would be a tough sell. I wound up seeing the movie 9 times in the theater bringing a different friend each time. I also chose to do a history minor at university because I wanted to know everything I could on it.

The internet doesn't really give people any sort of reality at a person's personality. Not really. You get the written word which can be taken, often, depending on how you particularly read what is written based on your own experiences. So when I like something I try to convey the best that I can why I like it and I am betting most people will like it as well. A reviewer tends to try to be persuasive in their opinion and it doesn't turn off easily.

Back when I heard Audio Note it was a little known brand to most (it probably still is) and so when a topic came up and I suggested people try it - I got a lot of backlash - which was odd to me since the people ripping me had not heard the things. Now I understood it because hey if it was good it would sell as well as Bose right? People didn't really take my word for it because - well - who else agrees with Richard. Fast forward near 15 years and the things have been reviewed to death - so I figure hey - you can take all of these people's word for it too - it's not me and 1 guy from Stereotimes. I'm not sure if this is seen as a sales pitch - it is more support for myself not being the lone nut raving that the end is nigh. Granted it could just be a bunch of nuts but certainly in my head the reinforcements in the industry make me feel a lot more confident that "I was right all along" And "I am not the only nut in the tin."

But I try my best to offer some balance - I do offer alternatives to my choices but I also try to be pragmatic in that not everything is just about the sound quality. For instance ease of drive is a factor, finishing choices, warranty, resale value, upgrade-ability, whether you can get parts in 10 years. I have seen some issues with people that after just 7 years can't get replacement drivers. Which isn't helped if the company goes under. I mean if I am looking to buy Shindo or Audio Note - and you look at the surrounding issues - you're really going to have to like the former a helluva lot more to take on having possibly big issues in the future.

Lastly, I take a two pronged approach with reviews.
One: the consensus approach - if a LOT of reviewers are truly on board with something then there is a better than average chance the thing is at the very least "good" - kind of like the tomato meter at rotten tomatoes where you see a film get 95% fresh. That doesn't mean the film is GREAT however because 90 of that 95% may give the movie a 3/5 rating - it gets a pass but nobody gave the movie 5/5. Of course it could also mean that most gave it 5/5 - so you have to look deep into those ratings to determine both the consensus and how strongly they feel about the film.

Two: Find a reviewer who shares a similar ear. If I agree with Ebert 90% of the time and Siskel 50% of the time then I have a better shot auditioning what Ebert tells me to try.

Preferably you get both 1 and 2. This is what I do. Perhaps I assume others will see my logic on this matter. On another forum a guy was interested in AN and someone mentioned Magnepan. I am not a Magnepan fan. But I told him to turn over the rock - listen to the Magnepan - nothing else at $1800 or whatever the 1.7 is going for now sounds like a Magnepan - the brand has been around over 40 years so there is something very much to them - the last thing the guy should do is buy a speaker (AN or otherwise) and then "wonder" about the road not traveled. First, if he loves the AN - and he thinks it's better than the Maggies - he lost nothing but gained internal confidence in his choice. If he likes Magnepan better then he wins because he also turned over the AN rock.

With movies - I evaluate the goal - the goal of a horror movie is to scare and possibly to offer social commentary - if it does it's job it's a fine movie. A comedy (well you know its job). But some people just hate horror movies no matter if they are well crafted. With speakers reviewers should be trying to determine if the thing is a success at what it tries to do. So I can listen to say a Bryston/PMC combo which does what it does pretty well - and I will try and suggest what I think may be similar but better combination like YG Acoustics and Ypsilon (which I chose best sound (4 way tie) at CAS a few years ago - and gee AN wasn't in my top picks - I had MBL, Von Gaylord and Acoustic Zen/Triode Co) as the others).

 

When we write something we all have motives in doing so, everyone of us, and always, call it bigger or smaller types of agendas. In fact not writing can also be some type of motive.
When I write that I think this thread is just getting silly, even sillier now, I have motives for writing this. When I write that much really looks like an ad for AN, I write this because this is the way it very much looks to me, and I presume I have the right to see it that way.
I am not the one that is pushing for certain products here, I am just the one being critizised for being critical.

As for design goals for different designers, these can of course be discussed and penetrated. That is a very different matter, and can seldom be done on these types of boards fully. Usually they are too complicated, and also misunderstood.

 

I am not an Audio Note fanboy - I have yet to hear any! - but reading Peter Qvortrup's (and other related AN-ers, or AN users, some who participate here) ideas about how speakers (and the rest of the signal chain) should function has been invaluable to me in putting together the rather enjoyable system I have now. Which, ironically, isn't very AN-like in its elements (being solid-state, digital, narrow-baffle & small drivers). But the philosophy behind my attempts*, at least as I've tried to implement, I credit in no small part to what I've read by these guys - Peter, Richard, David, Warren, Steve H. (who's an AN guy these days still, right?)


*To stay out of "Audio Hell".

 

Agreed, that is what Jeff does.

 

Be enthusiastic all you wish, it's great that you feel so passionately about speakers that you enjoy. Seriously.
The line is blurred when people who voice contrary opinions for the AN speakers are discredited, and discredited with a vigor that raises questions.

 

One look at my profile and you will know that I scarcely have any right at all to contribute to this discussion. I am however enjoying it immensely.

I read this article yesterday and this thread immediately came to mind. Perhaps the question is not so much "accurate" vs. "neutral," but "accurate" vs. "utilitarian." Perhaps not. I just thought that I would toss this out in case someone else appreciates unexpected juxtapositions of thought. BTW, a friend of mine is a physics professor. He feels that Hoffman is handling classical vs. quantum theory all wrong, muddling the two do to lack of understanding.

Anyway. Enjoy (hopefully).

The Case Against Reality »