Original Japanese pressing of Led Zeppelin II on CD: Why did I buy the remaster?

Here is a classic example of my change in stance on remasters. Years ago, I bought most of the Zeppelin remasters sight on seen. They were remasters. They had to be better than the originals. Well, I am listening to the original Japanese pressing of Led Zeppelin II (Daio Kosan pressing) that I bought recently, and it is just outstanding! Hiss galore, and it breathes! Why did I buy the remaster?

Actually, I also have an old U.S.-pressed pre-remaster disc that I bought in the late '80s. I should check it to see if it has the same mastering as the Japanese pressing. For all I know, I've had the right version for some 18 years and I didn't know it.

I really like all the original Japanese and West German pressings of Zeppelin except for the West German target of "IV". That disc did not sit well with me when I listened to it seriously awhile back. Maybe I should give it another listen.

 

I hear you. I never bought any of the originals... at the time I was sick of Zeppelin, and then when I decided to buy Zep CDs, I passed on all the used pre-remasters and went straight for the new ones. Once I heard the pre-remasters, I quickly changed my mind.

I have a US pressing too, and I love it. I'd be interested to see if it is the same as your Japanese disc.

 

You should get that "IV" again (with the acoustic guitar in the beginning of Stairway To Heaven in the left channel - there are quite a few discs out there with reversed channels - the target is a safe bet to get the right channels, but also an expensive one).

While the difference between the remaster and the old non-remastered CD is not as big as it is with some of the other Led Zeppelin CD's (II, HOTH, etc.), I still think the original version sounds better overall. Just listen to Stairway to Heaven all the way through on both versions. The drums sound so bad on the remaster, I can't stand it.

Roland

 

Keith, welcome to the club of all of us who did the same thing you did. We were all knuckleheads I guess, with me being the knucklehead of knuckleheads.

I'm sure that Zepp II you've had for 18 years is the same mastering as your Japan disc. It should be the Barry diament mastering.

Barry was quite active on the board a couple of months ago. It's really cool the way he was responding to every question, and fast too.

 

I still have the West German target of "IV" -- two variations, actually. I'll have to compare it to the remaster.

 

I'm a knucklehead in that I once bought remasters blindly. However, I never once got rid of an earlier version. Unfortunately, I did not start buying CDs until 1987, so I missed the chance to get West German and Japanese pressings new.

 

Same here. I got taken in on the remasters thing a couple of years ago with all my ABB, Purple, Van Halen and Zep stuff. Virtually purchased all the new remastered (crap) and now, a little while down the line, find that I MUCH prefer the older original pressings.
I feel like such a SUCKER!!
I've got a German "Zeppelin II" on the way from ebay; recently got a German "Idlewild South" by the Allman Bro's, and have been picking up original versions of the rest of the Zep and ABB catalog.

 

I know exactly how you feel. I had all the original CD releases and fell for the whole "remaster" thing as well. Over the years since, I'd forgotten the sound of the originals and gradually came to the conclusion that Zeppelin was poorly recorded in the first place. Only in the past year and partially because of this forum have I discovered that such is not the case. The original Barry Diament mastering (Joe Sidore for LZIV) sounds much better to these ears than the remasters. Recently, I've had the opportunity to hear a couple of hi-res needledrops of the Classic Records vinyl re-issues and man, what a revelation! It's like listening to the Diament masters without the limitations of CDs. Just as soon as I can invest in a quality turntable, I'm definitely going in that direction.

However, the one problem I've noticed so far is Led Zeppelin II. I posted this question to an RL thread and even sent a private message to someone there but no one has answered. Maybe you can comment. I've now heard every available version of LZII, including Barry Diament's 80's CD mastering, the Marino/Page remaster, the 2003 overlimited version of the Marino/Page remaster and even a needledrop from a Classic Records re-issue. All of these sound overloaded to me, as if the original recording was way too hot. The highs are on the verge of sounding like a post 2000 remaster (meaning as subtle as a chainsaw) and the bass sounds just plain overloaded.

Does your Japanese pressing sound this way as well? Of all the CDs I've heard, Barry's mastering sounds the best to me, but even there I hear the overload, for example, where the chorus comes in on What Is and What Should Never Be, or the E chord stabs during the solo on Whole Lotta Love. It's been over 20 years since my Zeppelin collection was on vinyl, and I certainly didn't have quality equipment then, but I seem to remember LZII sounding fresh and alive.

Thanks for your help,
Steve.

 

Steve, the Japanese pressing of II (CD) does not sound "hot" to me. I have not yet compared it to my old U.S. pressing. The Japanese pressing is impressive.

 

I bet this is the number one reason for people finding this web site. It definitely was for me. It makes me crazy every time I think what about what I've sold or given away over the years.

 

I used to buy remasters blindly also, but I DID get rid of the earlier version (without first comparing). So who is the real knucklehead. I am now in the process of purchasing back all those CDs I once had a traded away. I finished picking up the Diament Zep CDs, I finished picking up the Bob Marley Diament CDs. I got back the target for Talking Heads "Stop Making Sense" (as fortunately I did not trade away my first pressing Talking Heads CDs except for Stop Making Sense). I finished picking up all the early pressings of Dire Straits (whether they be Vertigo Red/Blue swirls, US Targets, etc.) - which I had (all Target versions) and got rid of when the remasters hit the stores.

Now I have to look at things that might get a bit more expensive like the RCA Bowies, which I had many of (only have ChangesOne left) but traded away.

 

While there are different-sounding versions of LZ II out there (I have the original U.S. Atlantic CD and the Marino remaster), I recall a Jimmy Page interview where he stated that the album was over-recorded (i.e., "needles into the red") on purpose to be "crunchier". I heard a friends' original vinyl version (Ludwig version) and, while wonderful (the best version I've heard even), it still sounded overdriven in places like the powerchords behind the "Whole Lotta Love" solo.

 

Lots of tape saturation and perhaps preamp distortion. It's just the way it was recorded.

 

What version/source are you referring to?

 

Last year, I bought a 2003 mini-LP version of all the Zeppelin studio releases. Amazon Canada listed them as UK releases, although I recently glanced at the fine print on one and noticed it was marked "Manufactured in Germany"). I noticed that the levels on it seemed louder than the original Marino remasters, which I have in the form of the 1990 & 93 box sets. I ripped the new disc and sure enough there quite a few flattops, certainly more than the first Marino version. It's not a straght-across-the-top brickwall like a lot of new releases, but it does look like somebody somewhere decided to do his or her own additional "remaster" (Sorry I can't provide values. It's at home and I'm at work on a lunch break). I recall reducing the levels about 4dB and other than the chopped peaks, the result was virtually identical to the Marino versions.

I'm a 30-year Zep fan who participates in several mailing lists/forums, yet I've heard of no official news of any band-sanctioned masters beyond the initial Barry Diament/Joe Sidore work in the 80's, the George Marino remasters in the 90's and more recently the Classic Records vinyl re-issues. Jimmy Page did say in a 2003 promo interview for the DVD release that eventually, it would make sense to redo the Zeppelin catalog for 5.1 release but he seemed leery to deal with the business side of it. Thus I doubt there was any official band-related decision to remaster again. It would certainly not make sense to do so and not promote them as newly remastered as this would be good a selling point for the "unwashed masses."

 

I'm also revisiting Zep.

I'm also a knucklehead.

[DISCLAIMER]I'm not an audiophile.[/DISCLAIMER]

I'm hearing the good things described here in Barry's original, particularly in terms of 'air'... but I also hear discernibly more information in the remasters – as if they used a better source, sorta like Hendrix EH – even if the EQ and/or level choices are wrong.

My conclusion has been that only vinyl will get me what I want for Zep... my test case has been LZII, the vinyl version being the Classic (around here, said to be far from the best)... this supposedly imperfect vinyl is besting either CD version in this house (on mid-fi gear)... and doing it pretty handily... so off to the vinyl shrines once again.

One knucklehead's experience.

 

Keith, try to track down a vinyl copy of IV with 'PECKO DUCK' in the dead wax. I just finally found one this past weekend, and all I can say is WOW. I doubt I'll ever listen to any other version again. However, I hear the remastered Classic LP's that you can currently buy sound pretty good too. But this 'PECKO DUCK', is more than excellent in my book.

 

Hey Steve,

Like you said, the original Led Zeppelin catalogue has been "mastered" twice (except TSRTS). There are some slight differences not associated with mastering (channel switching, cough editing, etc).

The mini LP's were issued twice (initial Japan release and a subsequent Japan and German release). The German release discs were made in Germany and the artwork made in Japan. I have both complete sets of the japanese releases and a couple of the German. The most recent Japanese and German releases that I have in duplicate are identical to the Marino remasters.

Is there any way you can re-verify what you have is different?

I also have some of the harder to find pressings of the zep catalogue here.

 

Barry mentioned recently on this forum that he could do a much better job now with today's technology and the right version of the master tapes. Given the quality of needledrop samples kicking around, I think he's absolutely right. Even a run-of-the-mill soundcard capturing a decent turntable output results in digital files that sound incredible compared to any commercial CD release I've ever heard of Zeppelin, even at 16-bit/44.1kHz. Imagine if Classic were to release 24/96 or 24/192 versions.

 

Keith if I were you I would try and find the Barry Diament mastered Zeppelin CD's with the exception of Houses of the Holy. The "Holy Grail" if you will of HOTH is the West German Target CD, which I have a copy of and I have NEVER EVER heard a version out there that comes close to this one. It has so much Breath of Life it's unreal, if only all of Zep's cataloge sounded as good as this one.
As far as Zep on CD goes it is common knowledge that they are one band who really didn't transfer over to CD all that well. Mostly everyone is in agreement that vinyl is the way to hear them and I am actively pursuing Zep on vinyl. Hope this helps.

 

It is my belief, and someone else can back me up on this one, that whether or not you have HOTH on the Target disc or an early regular silver pressing (either pressed in Japan, WEA in the US, or another German pressing) you have the same mastering (as it was only mastered once by Barry Diament in the early days - as the only early Zep that was not mastered by Barry was ZOSO).

 

I think this is correct. At least my target CD sounded the same as two other silver CD's I had. All sounded excellent and miles better than the remaster.

Roland

 

My hearing isn't getting any better, I'll admit, but I could not differentiate between my German target and original Standard US release of HOTH. They both sounded identical to me. I felt as if I'd wasted the $30 I spent on the target issue. Still do.

 

You could always compare the waveforms and see if they are identical to be sure. Then there would be no question.

 

I'm a knucklehead too....and I just sold off my 'Complete Studio Recordings' box since I was finally able to complete my unremastered Zep CD collection. I too had them back in the late 80s and sold them off, only to track them down again! Oh well....

Having said that, now the hunt is on for good vinyl pressings and doing needledrops.

I think I have a PECKO DUCK Led Zep IV but will have to double-check. Thank you for the heads-up on that, Scott....!


---Matt