Ortofon Bronze/Black on Rega Planar 3 2016. The solution for sibilance/IGD?

Hi, everyone!

I have my P3 2016 for 6 months and I feel it's time to make some changes. First of all, I can't get rid of distortion and IGD coming from the Elys2 cartridge, no matter what I do. Maybe it's a poor tracker after all.
But I've been reading a lot about using Ortofon carts, especially the Bronze, to eliminate distortion and IGD (I won't use any spacers, as the arm is already high enough). What about the 2M Black? I can afford either of them right now, so which one do you recommend?

 

I hear that the Blue is very good. Why not try that one first as it is a lot cheaper? I have the Red right now and I'm thinking of upgrading to the Blue because I am not happy with it.

 

I've considered the Blue, but I'm trying to get away from elliptical.

 

I maintain that the Bronze - when perfectly aligned - is one of the best there is in that pricepoint.

Once I finally got mine to be perfectly aligned a while back - it has been stellar. Certainly no IGD to speak of.

Not even sure that a Black would best it.

PS - your mileage may vary as my Bronze is housed in a beautiful SL-1210MK5. I once had a Rega (with the Ortofon Blue) but sold it after getting my hands on a pair of SL's

VP

 

I use a bronze on an rp3 and love it. When that cartridge is new, it's pretty bass-light but it doesnt stay that way for long. I love the detail and extension at all frequencies, and it eliminates all IGD that i can detect.

However, it hasnt been the final word on sibilance for me. Its better than my last elliptical in this regard, but its still there.

When i got the table, it came with an Exact, which I tried out a little bit. Excellent cart! More bottom end, but not lacking in treble either. When testing out sibilance, i used the Steve Hoffman/Kevin Gray mastering of kate bush's the sensual world. The "s" sounds on the vocals of "reaching out" showed sibilance on my grado cart, and the 2m bronze but NOT the Exact.

Depending on whether sibilance or IGD is the bigger issue, that cart might be worth the price jump. For me, i had to sell the exact to offset the cost of the rp3 itself. A single tear ran down my cheek when i did that

 

There are some other threads on this, but try the Ortofon OM 40, It is at least as good, if not better than the 2M Black for almost half the price. You can get it from KAB.

Here's a YouTube video comparing the 2M Black to the 40 stylus (that actually fits in the 2M body as well). The FG 70 is a more advanced stylus shape than the shibata.

 

I had completely forgotten about the Exact! It is also a great tracker? Sibilance pretty much ruins the experience for me.

 

I'm not a fan of the Bronze at all. That said up front, it was very particular regarding VTA, so I'd especially not recommend it with the Rega without spacers.

 

The Black is even more sensitive to VTA as well as azimuth so it's not a good choice for a machine with no adjustments for either. I've owned several Ortofons (OM20, OM5, 2M Bronze, 2M Black, OM40) and only the OM40 seems to handle sibilants and IGD as well as AT microlines or SAS styli. The elliptical, Shibata and line contact (in the case of the 2m Bronze, it's basically the same minor radius as a 2M Blue/OM20 with a longer major radius (8/18 µm for the elliptical, 8/40 µm for the line contact) so the 2M Bronze's "line" at 8 µm is no narrower than the 2M Blue's and won't be able to fit into any smaller pinch points on grooves. Compare that to the AT microlines with .12 mils (about 3 µm)!

 

AT microline and get on with your life. Line contact and shibata require perfect VTA/SRA to get the most out of them.

 

Yes, agreed. Of those you list, only the OM40 has a stylus tip small enough to avoid inner grooves issues (5/70 µm I believe). Smaller than that is probably not necessary, even though the microline, micro ridge, et al have an even smaller minor radius. That said, I really like the micro ridge on my Benz Micro Wood SL. Reduces inner groove issues, while not adding a lot of extra surface noise.

 

If You really care about problemfree listening You should buy a a microridge needle. Even if 0,2mil side radius will be close.
The cut should be close to the laquer cutter, but not too close.

 

Something like the VMN40ML and the VM540ML?

 

The Exact is a better tracker than the Bronze, but it is more expensive. I am a big fan of both.

 

Sorry, I just saw that the VMN is the stylus.

 

I didnt test the exact with anything other than a few tracks. Only that kate bush track was known to show sibilance when i played it before. It was GONE on the exact.

 

I would add the Goldring 1042 to your shortlist. Tracks really well and has a very neutral tone to my ears.

 

I have a Denon DL-S1...Special elliptical tip! No distortion and IGD . I've also used a 2M Red ...it to is an Elliptical. No problems with that. I also have a second table with a Mobile Fidelity cartridge the Studio Tracker....it is also an Elliptical. None of them has distortion and IGD. Perhaps there are other reasons you are having issues other than the cart? But at the same time, I dont know Elys2 , but all Ellipticals are not in the same basket.

 

I'm presently considering the RP3 with a Dynevector 10, but am very concerned about lack of adjustment capability of the Rega. What options do I have?

 

Spacers, shims, adjustable VTA bases. Lots of options.

 

I'm not the most clever man with tools in my hands! So if this scares me a bit, should I take it to (and shell out more coin) to my local pro audio shop, or consider another turntable?
I'd like to try and keep my total expense, table and cart, around $1800 US

 

The Exact also has the advantage of the 3-screw fixing as a direct drop-in replacement for the Elys2.
I've just started using a Planar/Elys 2 and love it! No sibilance here that I can detect.....

 

The Elys/Elys 2 cartridges were never meant to be anything other than entry-level things. Even as such, Rega should still put more effort into them. I’ve never known any Rega turntable owner who used a bundled Elys and remained satisfied with the cart. The Rega Exact, on the other hand, is a genuinely respectable cart, something I used on my own RP6 for quite a while before upgrading.

The best thing about the P3 is the RB330 tonearm. It’s a truly wonderful tonearm - very low-friction bearings, extremely stiff and very low resonance arm tube, and well designed. What that means is that any turntable equipped with an RB330 can make great use of a huge variety of cartridges.

Of the carts mentioned so far in this thread, I’ve tried the Ortofon 2M Black on the RB303 and the RB330. As sensitive and as well designed as the 2M Black is, the motor and plinth of the P3 are quiet enough to let the RB330/2M Black combination really sing. The Rega Exact 2 I’ve heard on a friends P3 and during a P3 audition at Bay Bloor Radio in Toronto, also sounded great. The 2M Black and the Exact 2 will track bad warps, and they’re both easy to set up on the RB303 or RB330 tonearms. As far as sound quality goes, I have to give the clear edge to a properly set up 2M Black though for it’s deeper, cleaner bass, more accurate midrange, and smoother, more accurate treble. The 2M Black is just a very well-sorted cartridge that can do everything well.

That’s not the end of the choices though. For a lark, I installed a Clearaudio Maestro V2 and a Hana SL on a P6 (RB330 tonearm - same as the P3), and on my own RP6 (which I actually used for a couple of months as a test bed for eleven different cartridges). The results were fantastic. The Hana SL is different in character from the 2M Black, though not necesssarily better. I like the Hana SL for its overall clarity - individual instruments seem somewhat easier to pick out of ensemble playing - though that’s definitely not something I prefer most of the time. But the rather expensive Maestro V2 (still an MM cart) is I think among the top five MM carts I’ve ever heard over the past forty years or so. It’s a genuine winner for Clearaudio, IMO.

My Kind of Music in Toronto currely has a P6 (RB330 tonearm) set up with a vintage Grace F9. Sounded great for its vintage.

Best of all on the RB303 and RB330, I’ve recently heard the Dynavector 20X2 and the notably more expensive Karat 17D3. Both carts sounded great, and superior by all audible measures to the 2M Black and the Maestro V2, with the Karat 17D3 being clearly the very, very best of the lot.

I’m looking forward to trying a stock Denon DL 103 and 103R on an RB330 arm in the near future, hopefully in the next month or so. I’m also trying to get my hands on a Zu/Denon DL 103 to try on an RB330 and on an Origin Live Onyx arm.

All of the carts I’ve mentioned were set up using Baerwald alignment with the Dr. Feikert alignment protractor to ensure correct spindle-to-pivot distance for perfect overhand setting and highly accurate alignment. In no case did any of these carts require absolutely precise alignment. A fraction of a millimeter hear and there had no negative effect on sound quality. I’ve got a Fozgometer to help finely adjust azimuth, but because the RB303/330 arms don’t have azimuth adjustment, the Fozgometer tells me when a new cart was misaligned out of the factory. None of the aforementioned carts generated any more than one or two db difference between channels. That means the factories are paying attention at these price points and that manufacturing tech is generally extremely good.

The RB330 tonearm is another home run for Rega, just like the RB303. Despite its lack of easy arm height adjustment, I’ve found that most well-designed carts (in particular the ones mentioned here) don’t really care. I also think the P3 is one of the best turntable values on the market today, anywhere. Very, very versatile for use with a very wide variety of cartridges.

Whatever you do, use tweezers and good light and a very steady hand to plug and unplug the tonearm leads. I’m lucky to have a very good soldering station and a place to work properly and a small jig to hold things in place. That makes it easier for me to replace tonearm leads when the inevitable happens and I break one because I’m experimenting far too often with carts on one tonearm or another with leads that were never designed to tolerate so much handling.

 

Thank you, that was very helpful!
If I understood correctly, no shims are required for the Black?

 

You need shims for just about every cartridge other than a Rega cartridge. It's super easy. It also maintains the rigidity of the arm mount. Don't be put off by it; it's very easy, only needs to be done once at install and will not lose adjustment, ever.
-Bill