P-Mount Cartridges

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by iDigital, Aug 9, 2016.

  1. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Somebody on AudioKarma liked it best of all the carts that eBay seller is selling. Appears to be a standard elliptical bonded but we shall see. Yes, it's an older style Audio Technica P mount body. I'll have enough carts for an army of turntables.

    Listening to the AT450 on the Sony PS-LX520 in my living room and I'm really impressed. This one sounds better than the one I put on the Technics upstairs, but it could just be a better match for that turntable.

    These are universal mount I think they would better most carts out there under $100 for a standard mount.
     
    jeffmo789 likes this.
  2. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    From one of the pics it seemed like the packaging indicated it was a nude mount? Be interesting to hear your comparison with the AT450 when you receive it :)
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  3. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    correction. the SS445E/U has a nude mounted stylus.
     
  4. McLover

    McLover Forum Resident

    Location:
    East TN
    Pioneer cartridges were made for them by other companies. Usually Audio-Technica and other Japanese manufacturers. And in the USA, no Pioneer turntables usually got sold with cartridges save for Centrex compacts and rack systems.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  5. McLover

    McLover Forum Resident

    Location:
    East TN
    ,

    The same also goes with some Ortofon models. T4p compliant means 6 grams mass, 1 1/4 gram tracking force optimum, and high compliance. And also, to add insult to injury here, too many T4p mount models were adaptations of existing 1/2" applications, and companies should have designed T4p mount models as clean sheet of paper design and engineering, so performance would have been better overall in this genre. Audio-Technica seems to be the main designed from the ground up, T4p mount cartridge manufacturer.
     
    HiFi Guy likes this.
  6. McLover

    McLover Forum Resident

    Location:
    East TN
    Big issue with T4p mount in adapters, sloppy mounting adapters and often less rigid coupling and less than optimum VTA and overhang. Good thing however, since many T4p mounts are adaptations of 1/2" mount applications, finding the 1/2" mount cartridge body the T4p mount was based on, is a superior method and a better overall combination.
     
  7. needlestein

    needlestein Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I looked at those 4040EP and they look good. Not sure if they're .3 x .7 or .4 x .7 though. Anyone?

    Oh well, if you notice on this auction that if you buy more than $75 you get 20% off, so I bought three and got $21 back. Great deal.
     
    PhilBiker and johnny q like this.
  8. needlestein

    needlestein Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    ggg
    I would say it was Technics who designed P Mount cartridges from the ground up, as they invented the format. Those Technics cartridges that were supplied with the P Mount turntables like the P23, P24, etc., are darned good cartridges. High quality, laminated cores, lots of cantilever and diamond options all the way up to boron and these days, often overlooked and dirt cheap. Replacement styli cost very little and even the aftermarket replacement styli sound great.
     
    Hubert jan, bluemooze and PhilBiker like this.
  9. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    I have never had trouble with universal mount carts. Nor have I had trouble with t4p carts that were based on 1/2 inch designs. On the contrary my Stanton L737-E- (which fits both factors) has always sounded magnificent on every turntable it has been mounted on. I have owned that cartridge since circa 1983 and it has been on many different turntables over the years, both T4P and 1/2" mount designs. IME the issues you raise are more theoretical than practical.

    I will add that my experience with a P-Mount Green cartridge from Grado was not very good, but that could have been just because it was a poor match for that specific turntable than because it was derived from a 1/2" mount design.

    This ebay sellers stash of NOS universal mount carts represents great value IMO. I am planning to put the one I just ordered in my 1/2" mount turntable to replace my largely spent AT440MLa. I can not afford the microline stylus replacement for the 440MLa at this time, but a nude mount elliptical is no slouch.
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    bluemooze and HiFi Guy like this.
  10. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    True enough, but from recent listening, I am giving Audio Technica the edge over Technics. I've compared a couple of vintage Technics carts with AT, and the Technics seem a bit exaggerated, especially in vocals.

    Mind you, I don't have Line Contact or Shibatu or SAS stylus to play with.

    However, they really sound, and measure, quite different on my Technics turntable. YMMV.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
    PhilBiker likes this.
  11. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    What is this graph plotting?
     
  12. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    It's a comparison of the frequency spectrum of a recording I made with each of the cartridges. The LP I used was just a rock album, not any special test track, so it's not showing frequency response or anything like that, but it does illustrate the differences between the carts on my system.

    The recordings were lossless 16/44.1 (captured with a HD-Minidisc recorder). I used Audacity's Plot Spectrum function, exported the data, and imported into Excel.

    I thought it was interesting to try, as I could definitely hear the difference between the carts, so wanted to find out if there was a measurable difference as well :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
    JohnO and PhilBiker like this.
  13. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Cool, thanks!

    Meanwhile - here's the SS445-E/U under the microscope. Looks to be a similar nude "Tombstone" stylus.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Looks to be a simpler cantilever design.

    Contacts for the magnets.
    [​IMG]

    This is going to be my new "default" cart for my Realistic LAB-440. Unfortunately the first record I tried it on was a troublesome thrift store purchase with some inner groove issues that wreak havoc with the A-T style light tracking styli, so I swapped out to my Stanton L737-E- with the heavy tracking 4822-DEE stylus, which plays it OK but has minor sibilance issues.

    Very nice to have multiple options and removable headshells!
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2017
  14. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    Good stuff! Have you been able to do any comparisons with the AT450?
     
  15. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    I haven't done any real serious listening tests yet because I'm spending all my time listening to either my pop fill-in gig stuff that I need to learn on repeat or Christmas music - because 'tis the season.

    I have the SS445-E/U installed on my Realistic turntable using a P-mount adapter. There it will stay. The 450s are on each of my two Japanese direct drive servo driven linear trackers.

    Initial findings are that the SS445-E/U is finicky like the 440MLa was - completely barfed on my Paul Simon second hand copy of "Here Comes Rhymin' Simon". However, on a clean new record (U2's latest - see below) the sound is at least equivalent to the 450. On my ultimate torture test sibilance record, which I have almost never heard cleanly outside of a megabuck system at my local high end dealer, it tracks at least as well as my 440MLa on its best day (!!). It's that good. I'm seriously thinking of ordering another one just to have in a drawer. This is an extremely great cartridge.

    [​IMG]

    Information on the family of cartridges that this is from. This is the documentation that came with it.

    [​IMG]

    It's not as "bright" sounding as the 450 (or any other A-T cart I've ever heard actually). More laid back on the high end than I've ever heard from Audio Technica - but smooth sounding no high end information is lost. All the detail is there, but not emphasized like you would usually expect from A-T. Sound is extremely great. Equivalent to the 440. IMO you're not going to better this for under $100, perhaps $200. And it's $36. I need a spare.

    I'll post some sound samples in the coming weeks.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
    jeffmo789 and bluemooze like this.
  16. needlestein

    needlestein Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I received my ATU4040EPs today and there is no paperwork at all. Anyone know if these are nude .3 x .7 or .4 x .7? I would like to know because I plan to use one of the styli to retip a Sumiko Blue Point P Mount.
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  17. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I'm starting to want one of these...
     
  18. needlestein

    needlestein Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    Forums are good for that.
     
    PhilBiker likes this.
  19. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Unfortunately for my wallet...
     
  20. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    OK folks. Here you go.

    Needle drops from my system. The ultimate sibilance torture test #1. U2 - No Line On The Horizon side 2 track "Moment Of Surrender" - one of my favorite U2 songs ever. I didn't use either of my linear trackers because it's easier to swap out carts on the turntable with a removable headshell. I may follow up with ultimate sibilance torture test #2.

    NOT a reference quality system - decidedly mid-fi. Nothing special here.

    My turntable is a Realistic LAB-440.
    Phono stage is the one built into my Sony DA4ES receiver.
    ADC is an E-Mu 1212m
    Software is SoundForge Audio Studio 10.0 using ASIO drivers in Windows 10

    I captured in 24/44.1 as I always do with a CD-quality file being my end result. I then trimmed the needle drop sound and normalized the file to 0dB. I had to save in 16 bits as the 24bit FLAC was too large for sendspace with my free account.

    All installed to the stupid protactors (Baerwald and Loefgren) from vinyl engine to the best of my limited ability.

    1) Audio Technica AT90 P-mount with ATN3427SE Bonded Eliptical - 1.25G
    2) Sony VL-45G with Pfanstiehl 4213-HE Bonded Hypereliptical - 1.25G
    3) Pickering TL-2 with LPGear 8DTL2E Bonded Eliptical - 2.5G
    4) Stanton L 737-E- with Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE Bonded Eliptical 2.5G
    5) Stanton L 737-E- with VoM 4606-DEX Bonded Eliptical 1.5G
    6) AT440MLa with (old possibly in need of replacement) stock Microline stylus - 1.5G
    7) AT450 with stock Nude Eliptical stylus - 1.25G
    8) SS445E/U with stock Nude Eliptical stylus - 1.25G

    Cartridge Comparison CDQ.flac (205.52MB) - SendSpace.com

    Interested in comments. I know what my conclusions are after doing this experiment. (Keep in mind the 440MLa is ~= a $200 cart and the 445E/U is $36(!!!!)) Interested in reading yours.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
    JohnO, bluemooze and brimuchmuze like this.
  21. brimuchmuze

    brimuchmuze Forum Resident

    I hear the smoothness you are referring to on the SS445E/U. Bono's vocal come across very nicely on this one, with much less distortion than some of the other carts.

    There may be some other tradeoffs on the "brightness" side that come down to personal preference.

    Definitely a different sound between the AT450 and SS445E/U.

    These type of comparisons are great.

    I am not sure if it has been mentioned before, but if you register at "http://www.p-mount.net/" you can have access to samples of various other p-mount carts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2017
    PhilBiker and bluemooze like this.
  22. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    Yup. Another surprise (though it shouldn't have been) was how great the Stanton L 737-E- with Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE sounded. On records that don't have big sibilance issues that cart sounds second best.
     
  23. needlestein

    needlestein Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    If only that stylus were more compliant, I could recommend it for P Mount use. That is the best, most original-sounding, sub $100 aftermarket Stanton stylus available. I just wish that Pfanstiehl would soften the suspension. It just doesn't really get along well with light arms, particularly with hot recordings. Things would likely improve regarding sibilance if you can increase your tracking force to 1.5g--maybe even a bit higher if you can swing it. But then you are increasing stylus pressure on a .2 x .7 somewhat heavy bonded elliptical, which may not be great for your records. But I've done that for years without causing any noticeable damage, so why not?

    The Pfanstiehl 4822-DEE also works in moving magnet bodies and sounds phenomenal. I use one in my Pickering XLZ-7500 (low output moving magnet) and it does a heck of a nice job.
     
    bluemooze likes this.
  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    @needlestein , does Pfan or EVG, or any other aftermarket dealers publish compliance specs for these Stanton/Pickering styli? I'm not seeing compliance specs for LP Gear Vivid Line styli for these either.
     
  25. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA

Share This Page