P3esr for near field--how much power?

I bought a set of Harbeth C7es3 in the late spring and have absolutely fallen in love with them--so much so that I'm contemplating a pair of P3esr for near-field listening in my home office. But one big question is: how to power them? The P3esr is not an efficient speaker (83.5 db/w). But I would be doing almost all of my listening in a near-field setting, between 16 and 26 inches from the drivers at my desktop computer, at volumes conducive to work. Because of the limitations of my available space, I would need an amp with a fairly small footprint, something like the NAD D3020v2 or the new Rega io. Both of those only output 30 wpc into 8 ohms (I believe the P3esr is 6 ohms). Is this enough? At times when I really want volume, I would simply go to my living room (where the C7es3 reside) or the basement (KEF R500).

 

One tenth of that power will probably be enough. You won't be listening a high levels (at least not for very long), and you're very close to the speakers.

jeff

 

I have a 90 watt amp on for my P3's - but in your instance, something like the little Rega io would probably work well.

 

It's enough power but not enough quality, in my opinion. I don't do desktop but I had my P3's in the nearfield and even my low powered Croft drove them at low to moderate volumes just fine. The IO and NAD are just a bit rough around the edges and I wonder if you could stretch the budget a bit to say a Brio or Heed Elixir. At the distance that you will be listening it would be a shame to have low quality amps on such lovely sounding speakers.

 

+1

I use 8Wpc SETs with ... 87dB ? Triangle Titus speakers, 6' or so from my ears, no limitation on volume. I haven't checked the calculator site but imagine at 1/2 the distance, 3dB less sensitive speakers should give you similar results with the same power ...? (Seems like peak SPL is 3dB higher, which is louder ... I think with SPL it takes 6 or even 10dB to get 'twice as loud' so it's louder but not twice as loud.)

Peak SPL Calculator I put in 84dB, 8W, 3', 2 speakers away from walls, and get 96.8dB SPL which is way louder than I would want to listen ...

 

Some ProAc Tablette 10 here next to my computer. Driven by a 4 Watt EL84 (6BQ4 for the US members) and a 2C51 driver (very linear and dynamic). Foobar2000 has a volume control that also shows a dB rating. I am listening most of the time at 40mW to 120mW. Running at maximum output (peaking at close to 4 Watt) is uncomfortable for more than a few minutes and most certainly don't allow you to do any work on the computer.

And all those power fans: I have been doing lots of modelling over the past 8 months to get this perfected and although there appears to be little difference at maximum output by the time you reduce the output to 1/10 or 1/100 of the output then there appear large anomalies in results. Single ended UL for the EL84: do try to use no more than 20% UL otherwise the 0 ~ 100mW goes to sh1t. Local feedback: noice on paper but not with real life changing output impedance, pure resistance load is fine but varying load has lots of detremental impact. One cross over is not the same as another.

My advise is to right size.

edit: The Harbeths and ProAc's are best used with a tube amplifier. The above remarks are based on tube amplifiers, gave up solid state after an incident where I lost some very expenseive speakers due to a fault in an expensive solid state amplifier. For near field listening I much prefer SE since with PP you'll have to deal with hysteresis in the ouput transformers which is not applicable when using SE.

 

Harbeth P3ESR - I wish I had been able to settle for those instead (of having to settle for the ProAc Tablette 10). But it would have meant that I would have required a more powerfull amplifier, around the 7 ~ 8 watt level (Calculation voltage and power - gain and loss - sengpielaudio Sengpiel Berlin ) and in SE they quickly become big, heavy and expensive. (Had a 6L6GC SE at one time - weighed 18.7 Kg but I prefer the EL84 / 6BQ5) . And next to a computer space is everything (and not to forget: the heat). Finale Audio F-108 would have been nice but it is discontinued (and I would want a slightly higher spec'd OPT but stay away from the Asian OPT's (e.g. ISO, Hashimoto, James) as the Asian's have a different listening preference than the western world (more emphasis on the middle frequencies, less bass). The Asian transformers normally do not have enough inductance to reproduce the lowest frequencies....)

Hope this helps.
AM

 

I had both the Proac Tablette 10 and the P3ESR. I sold the Harbeths and never looked back.

 

The Luxman SQ-N150 is a compact integrated amplifier (with MM/MC phono) that would be lovely near field. You may find Zero Fidelity's review interesting; he specifically comments on the P3ESR pairing.

 

Geez. as for how much power these low efficiency delicate little monitors really require---Minimum 100 watts is my opinion.
But it depends on the amp.
They are "picky."

I say they are low efficiency because they are, after all, sealed box acoustic suspension speakers that are tiny---and thus pretty power hungry if the tweeter is necessarily lowered in power at the crossover to balance with the hungry woofer...

For MY Ls3/5s I was content to place a 250 watt per channel Parasound A21 at my feet using the XLR connections.
Space considerations were therefore moot.
And I will say that at 250 per speaker my particular pair of LS3/5s finally woke up!
I have also run them off 100 watts of Rogue tube power and they sounded swell.
But I tried them with Parasound A23 class A/B transistor amps (125 watts per) and they didn't sound right.
As they are a perfectionist speaker it pays to feed them lots of clean power.

So I'd say either run them with a tube power amp at a hundred or above---or control them with the 250 watt Parasound A21 series or similar---a transistor amp in the 250 watt class.
I have also tried different amps besides those previously listed and my power opinion still stands so far...

 

I'm guessing you didn't read this:

jeff

 

Mine ARE ALSO used in the nearfield.
I OWN a pair of Spendor S3/5s which are similar---small BBC type monitors.
They sounded thin with a Parasound A23 (125 watts).
I then used a spare 500 watt per channel high power amp out of my PA music rack to see if lack of power was the problem.
It WAS---as that high power amp grabbed these little puppies by the neck and wouldn't let them go.
The sound became FULL.
I now run a Rogue tube amp at 100 watts per channel and it can grip them with authority.
I also ran them last year with a big Parasound A21 (250 watts per channel) and it did much the same thing.
That's what got me to try the Rogue at 100 watts---it was proof they NEED power!
Nearfield output volume is NOT the only criteria for selection of a power amp to drive BBC mini-monitors.
CONTROL is where it's at.
And they need LOTS of control to get them to behave.
The crossover section is murderous to low power amps as it is shelved way down in the bass to better match the tweeter.
This turns these little babies into power hungry munchkins...
They can benefit from LOTS of power!

 

One of the finest desktop and nearfield combinations I've ever set up was based on the Rega Brio and the Harbeth P3ESR. I tried a couple of different DACs and a variety or streamers, Roon, browser feeds, ets.

I used both the NAD D3020 and D7050 with the P3ESR, P3ES2, Falcon Acoustics LS3/5A, Audio Space AS3/5A, Proac Tablette (the 8, IIRC), Amphion Ion, Focal CMS50 (active), Totem Rainmaker, and a few others. The D7050 is wonderful and, while different in character from the Rega Brio, works very well. Flip a coin - there's no bad choice here. Add a Bluesound Node2i to either the D7050 or Brio and enjoy the music. Wonderful sound.

I've also used a few all-in-ones for nearfield systems. The Naim Unit Atom was the best of the bunch, but it also comes with an eye-watering price. An older Naim Unitilite (that can now be found used for about the same price as a new Brio or new D7050) also worked brilliantly but it's a full size component which makes it problematic for most desktop setups. The Cary Audio AIOS was also brilliant - amazing actually for such a small class A/B all-in-one - and its footprint is tiny. Also pricey, but wonderful too.

I've also tried the PS Audio Sprout 100 with many of the nearfield setups but to my ears it couldn't provide the weight and depth I prefer.

 

For the kind of listening you're doing, low volume, while working, I think the PS3esr is way overkill. I'd sooner see you put the $2500 toward upgrading your main system from the the very nice C7 to the very, very, very nice Harbeth SHL5.x. I'm a Harbeth guy all the way, but I use the little Audioengine self powered at my desktop and I think they sound just great -- any better, and I wouldn't be able to concentrate on my work

 

Man, why so angry with the CAPs? Also, that’s...a lot of foam padding.

 

I demoed P3s for a week years ago before settling on C7s for my living room. My 35 w/ch Primaluna Prologue One tube amp drove them to living room listening levels so for nearfield I'd echo what everyone else is saying on the lower power requirement end of the spectrum.

Moving from P3 to C7 — things I noticed (in case this helps at all) — the P3s did a much better job of "disappearing", the smaller footprint and soundstage they throw just makes them absolutely invisible while you're listening. The C7s produce a lot more bass which makes sense with the size of the drivers, and still have all of that mid-range magic which is why I settled on them for the larger space. But the P3s are just an incredible little speaker and I'll probably end up with a pair some day.

 

Not angry---just mimicking my speech pattern as conversation.
As for the Sonex (fireproof version, natch) it is mandatory in the control room.
I run an LEDE setup.
It's called "dead flat NEUTRAL, no early reflections."
And yes, it works very well.
I built studios for recording stars you have heard of.
The foam wouldn't be there if it didn't work.

 

That will almost always be the case with near-field listening on a small speaker, because almost all of the sound your hearing perceives is direct from the speakers. In a larger room, with the typical indirect reflections from the side walls, the P3 would sound-stage only slightly better than a properly positioned C7, and their inherent imitations compared the larger C7 would become more apparent. FWIW, I think you made an excellent choice with the C7.

 

Right now I have a pair of Peachtree M25 powered speakers on my desktop. They have one very small sweet spot at which they sound truly great, but outside that sweet spot they sound decent for computer speakers but unremarkable. It's hard to go from the C7s to the office system. I know I'm capable of working with very good sound playing, as I sometimes work in my living room listening to the C7s. I realize the P3s might be overkill for my office, which is one of the reasons I haven't made the move yet. But I surely am tempted.

At some point in the future I dream of getting a pair of SHL5 to replace the KEF R500 I have in my basement system. But that's going to be awhile.

 

Congratulations on getting P3ESR's. IMO the best speaker Harbeth makes ... which is really saying something (I haven't heard the M30 series, so there's that.)

I think for nearfield the Rega Brio would be a great match. For a little more $$ a Naim Nait 5si (if that's still the current Nait) or Rega Elex-R, though I don't think the added power is really needed for nearfield. The Brio won't be breaking a sweat in that situation.

 

Can't quite agree with you on the P3ESR being the "best" Harbeth overall, but it's mighty nice. I envy your the Chartwell LS6. I've heard their LS3/5, and it's just so crazy good.

 

The thing I've found after visiting many audiophiles houses is that everyone has VASTLY different opinions of what's loud enough. I've had music blasting at me at ear defining levels and the host say to me..."do you mind if I turn it up a little?"

 

All of us being different I had the opposite reaction, in the end. I still have both speakers and feel that the P3’s are the better of the two. Both are lovely and could be the last speaker an enthusiast buys.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

 

Yeah, that’s about what I said..lol. As an aside it was your posts that drew me to the Tab 10’s to begin with and I am happy that I have experienced them. They are a special little speaker.