Poll . Cost of your system

There are a wide variety of reasons, motivations, approaches and sonic results for building a very expensive high end system. Perhaps some of the characterizations found here apply to some systems and their owners, but, at best, these are crude generalizations. What is common to all such mega-buck systems, as well as far more modest systems is that NONE can be characterized as involving "no compromises" or being in any sense "ultimate" systems. What can be said is that higher spending makes it easier for the owner to achieve what that owner wants in terms of sonic preferences -- including the inevitable tradeoffs of one sonic attribute for better performance in another area--NO MATTER how much is spent choices inevitably still mean tradeoffs; money only provides for a bit more flexibility.

Even where someone isn't just throwing money at a system and is carefully building a high end system, the result is personal satisfaction--someone else can reasonably find the results to be far less satisfactory than a much more modest system.

My personal priorities include having a system that is extremely dynamic and lively sounding at very modest sound levels. My system is built around that as a major priority and it would be a terrible disappointment to anyone wanting something that plays at very high volume levels (none of the amps I have retained put out more than 6 watts of power). I did not BUY a $200,000 + system, it was "built" over a very long period with many components that have pretty much retained their value over the years because they were good then and remain good to this day. For example, the midrange drivers in my system (Western Electric 713b and the 12025 horn) currently sell for much more than I paid for them. My current linestage and amp are built around vintage parts that keep going up in price so I don't expect these components to lose any value. The amp that I current don't use and have lent to a friend (Audionote Kageki) has a retail price that keeps going up (primarily because products from this company remain in the lineup for MANY years--none of the "this-year's-model" approach to ginning up new business from Audionote). Carefully chosen components at ANY price level will retain their value for a long time and are actually less of a wasteful indulgence than gear that doesn't last or caters to the crowd that believes that only the latest "innovations" deliver great sound.

 

I agree with most of what you've said Larry but your final paragraph makes me take pause. Forgive me for being forthcoming but it's sounds like you purchased the above gear ( very nice gear ) as an investment rather than an outlet for your passion.

I too love my vintage system and i'm sure could benefit from it's sale, but won't soon part with it. There's something about classic gear that makes me forget it's value and dwell on it's triple rhythm. My vintage system may never match the absolute detail and authority of my modern day equipment but when ones engulfed in music's greatest moments and forgets the contemporary art of listening itself, we're allowed to wallow in it's wonders.

 

Triple rhythm? Is this related to Belgian beer?

 

LOL. Don't think so. It has more to do with classical music and a three beat melody ( three bar ), also known as triple metre.

Not to be confused with the quadruple rhythm that Dave Brubeck made famous.

 

tmsorosk,

I never buy with "investment" in mind, but, the kind of gear I tend to buy holds its value for a long time. That is the case because tube gear is based on very stable technology that really hasn't changed in 70 years (why should it), and high quality gear/parts continue to perform well for a very long life. I am sure that a lot of the top gear being produced now as cutting edge modern technology will also be very good sounding many years from now, and some will become "collectable," but, the "cutting edge" aspect of that gear's appeal will necessarily fade quickly because passage of time automatically renders it no longer cutting edge. Certain brands, such as Shindo, Audionote and Zanden, are philosophically the opposite--they seek out or build the best parts from ANY period of time and use the same old topologies that have been proven out a long time ago. This sort of gear has become MUCH more popular in Asia than the US because buyers there or more interested in holding on to the same gear for a long time and even passing it on to the next generation. In the US, gear is thought of more like appliances--something to be used up and then disposed for the latest-and-the-greatest. In that sense, this gear is sort of an "investment."

 

While I understand and even agree with the general direction of the whole post, the part I highlighted is a bit "lyrical", shall we say.

If the quoted part was true, we would see Texas Instruments "naked" resistors and Duelund silver foil capacitors across all 3 manufacturers' gear. I am not that familiar with Zanden, but there is not a piece of gear from AN UK or Shindo that uses the parts I mentioned.

While AN deserves a honorary vote for buying a lot of Black Gate caps that they are still using in their more expensive gear, that is an exception to the rule. The rule being "let's produce everything we can and not buy anything from anybody."

Shindo used to buy a lot of parts that were good and cheap and used them for decades. No way some of these can measure up to the best available.

 

The right parts are not necessarily the same ones across different manufacturers--a lot depends on sonic preference and particular design. I know a builder/designer who was having a difficult time finding particular "cheap" parts that were no longer made why he did not simply use a higher grade part that the same manufacturer made. He said that, for his design, the cheaper part sounded better. He did not like, for his designs, some of the then trendy parts, such as Vishay resistors, even though they measured well and would make life a whole lot easier because they are very consistent in quality. He also used things like teflon caps in some designs, and not others, based upon sonic results. I don't think that there are any particular parts that can be said to be universally superior--it still comes down to voicing and preferences.

Even where one would think newer parts MUST be superior, such as DAC chipsets, there are some designers that prefer older chips (e.g., Zanden and even NAIM) that are no longer being made.

I will, at some point, be experimenting with changes in the crossover for my speaker and I will certainly be considering Dueland caps and inductors. But, I will also be looking at other vintage parts as well.

 

I prefer to use Beyschlag caps and resisters and a cathode follower for the output tube.

 

No shure what the relevance of this is. Beyschlag produces cheap magnetic resistors. Audio Note offers 3 types of resistors in their products, Beyschlag being offered in their lowest range (then their own tantalum resistors and finally non-magnetic tantalums in their premium stuff).

As for Beyschlag capacitors, I am only aware of their electrolytic caps, so I am no shure how this relates to my previous post, in which I discussed premium film capacitors.

 

If we do standardized measurements on all possible components, we will get measured figures and by using these figures we can do a ranking, if we want to.

Subjective opinions are something completely different, these are nothing that can be used as a ranking or lead to any consensus. I don´t really know how this can be thought of as pertinent whatsoever, when the fact is there will be so many different opinions.

To say that some are the best to use is just not possible.

 

You clearly have not purchased Beyschlag resisters or caps, there far from cheap and the best I've heard. As far as Audio Note goes, after checking I see they use them in amps costing in the $30,000 to $50,000 range, that may well be there lowest range but hardly cheap.
Thats the relevance to your post and my thread.

 

I have no experience with Beyschlag resistors (I have used Audio Note and Shinkoh tantalum as well as Riken) and the data I quoted was taken from here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/parts/5566-how-good-beyschlag-resistors-digi-key.html

Here's what Audio Note said in post #8:
"We offer three quality levels of resistor quality, all are 1%, starting with the Beyschlag metalfilm, which are slightly magnetic (as are the vast majority of other makes of metal film resistors), but nonetheless very good sounding, as used in all our UK-made amplifiers, up to and including quality Level 3, the MEISHU/P3/P4, 300B no-feedback triode amplifiers.

Beyschlag 1 watt, 1% resistors up to 500KOhm, £ 0.11, above 500KOhm £ 0.13 each.

Due to the low cost of the Beyschlag resistors we impose a minimum order value of £ 25.00 on all orders that include these resistors."

Just for comparison purposes, the AN 1W tantalum resistors cost £ 6.60 each:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/-c-61_62_65.html

Audio Note resistors seem to cost 60 times more than Beyschlag. I really do not want to rain on anyone's parade, but these are the facts.

 

Well said.

And old adage with audio designers was, " don't confuse constant value with sonic value ".

 

Can you now confirm the diyaudio resisters are the same ones AN uses ? If my understanding is correct AN has Beyschlag build resisters to there spec. Sounds cheap doesn't it ?

 

I cannot confirm anything. All I know is that AN are cheap when it comes to parts quality relative to the price of their gear.

Everything AN make is very expensive. The AN resistors I bought only because they were heavily discounted at Parts Connexion, who had decided that they would not stock AN parts any more. That's telling a little, doesn't it.

 

I suppose it is. But there are many reasons why they may no longer be stocking those parts.

It's common to see manufacturers dump unwanted parts to third party parts suppliers because they didn't meet there spec. Charlie Hanson once said that less that one in fifty resisters purchased past there in house tests, they have literally drums of unwanted parts.

 

Perhaps he bought lots of cheap resistors and they were crap. I once read a very informative post in which he explained how much parts cost and why he was never going to build his amps with $100 capacitors in them, even at retail price of $10,000. He said that he would personally buy $100 coupling caps for his own use, but it does not work out financially for the gear he manufactures.

Bottom line here is: manufacturers fit their gear with inexpensive coupling caps for reasons other than sound quality. I have mentioned signal capacitors because of their huge influence on sound quality, but this reasoning applies to all other parts.

 

True, but I think the real bottom line for most reputable manufactures is to allocate money to the area's that they feel will make the greatest sonic improvements and cut corners on other. Interesting point about Ayre, when I read the info about the KX-R preamp Charlie claimed it was best possible preamp they could build with there current technology.
I was mostly a tube guy but after hearing the KX-R I had no choice but to bring one home for an audition, it's still here.

 

The money Ayre allocate to coupling caps has to be less than $50 a piece in amps retailing at $10,000. I have a total of 8 caps worth $700 in my dac. Who do you think is more dedicated to sound quality - me or them?

Btw, if anyone thinks that $20 coupling caps are all anyone needs in their gear should find a different hobby. Or try to hear the difference. After that experience, they would think differently.

 

The above preamp actually retails for about $20,000, and I also use the best caps etc I can find for my DIY projects and mods.

 

The "Blue danube"?

 

Ayre's owner is actually quite reasonable when it comes to parts quality in his designs. The opposite is true with this loudspeaker crossover by Goldmund:



These caps cost $2 each for 1uF value, the above are more expensive being larger values. Still, the speakers these go in cost megabucks.

 

Those Solen MKPs are some of the worst sounding caps I have tried. That crossover looks pretty bad all in all and I would bet it seriously reduces the SQ of the speaker it's going in.

 

I think a lot of this also greatly depends on what one expects out of a system. Huge bucks are fine to spend if one has a huge room, listens at high volumes frequently etc.

If one has a very modest listening room though, it is very easily possible to get full range sound with good imaging and detail, and have far smaller speakers, amps and so on.

No one size fits all system.

My DIY stuff and vintage HK in the pic to the left, along with a comp based system and a mid sized sub set up well, is able to do ANYTHING I want sound wise, from about 25hz-20,000, with more than enough volume, clarity and detail and fantastic imaging.

It is in a TINY room though.

I could not even imagine wanting anything more, as it is mildly overkill as it is.

So there are a lot of variables.

 

Kevin: to me, I would think a small room would present different challenges, apart from the acoustics of the room itself, and the interaction of the system with the room. For one, if I were in a 'nearer' field environment, I'd probably be even more sensitive to system noise; also, I'd want to get every last drop of what could be extracted from the source without having to crank the thing up too loud. Maybe more of a theoretical concern on the last one. None of this is easy, in my estimation. Takes work.