Pre/Pro recommendations that is HDMI ready and is a decent two channel performer

I have been looking for a decent Pre/pro with the latest formats to take the place on my AVR being used as one. I have been seeing used Anthem D2 V's out there, but have heard of HDMI issues with them. It has to have HDMI's even though Im 95% a two channel listener. I do listen to multi channel DVDA's SCAD's, Blu Ray audio etc, etc . Looking for something comparable or at least close to the performance of say the Anthem or a similar mid upper pre/pro.

Thanks

 

I would recommend the Emotiva XMC-1. The two channel SQ is excellent using the balanced output of my Oppo 105D with the Reference Stereo mode. The current price is $2250 direct from Emotiva. The XMC-1 does have some HDMI bugs that aren't major but they are there.

https://emotiva.com/products/pres-and-pros/xmc-1

Bill

 

Hi,

For the sake of being able to offer a more informed solution would you mind posting your complete system?

Cheers

 

And budget.

There could be a wealth of possible recommendations but exceed the OP's budget.

And preference, if any, for only buying new or considering used/refurbished.

 

Thanks guys.
McIntosh 7205
Denon 4311 AVR
Oppo 103D
Modified K-horns, with Volti mid horns, BMS mid drivers, Beyma tweeters, custom networks
Lascala Rears, stock components, custom network
Klipsch C7 center channel
SVS PB2 plus SUB

My budget is the $2500 range, which will put me in the "used" department for many of the better pre/pro's
Passing on the Emotiva, but thank for that offering Bill Mac

 

I fully understand in regard to the Emotiva. I had the 4311 before the XMC-1 and it's a great AVR that I used as a prepro. You could look at the Marantz 8801 or the 7702 which I believe fall in your price range.

You could also consider keeping the 4311 for multichannel music and get a preamp with HT Bypass. I used a Parasound 2100 with the 4311 and now have a Rogue Audio Perseus Magnum in my system for 2 channel (SACD, CD, DVD-A and Blu-ray) music listening. I really like the Perseus and it's "tube" SQ signature .

Bill

 

Nice system. And I appreciate your quest for a "better" pre-pro.

But even after all this time, reliability and HDMI handshake issues still persist with boutique brands that are positioned as "a cut above" the mainstream. Those issues are generally handled by the mainstream mfrs: Marantz, Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, Pioneer. They have the budget and economy of scale to stay current and reliable.

Higher-profile, respected mfrs such as Parasound have abandoned pre-pros altogether. Anthem, Emotiva, Outlaw have all had publicized issues. They're hard to get right.

Within that mainstream bunch – which offer pre-pros – the better money values are their AVRs. Which may not meet an audiophile preference for simple-signal-path audio components.

I'd recommend Marantz any day. Partly because of my own brand loyalty, but also because they've been enjoying an unusually good reliability rep for the last several years.

The "better" factor, sound quality? Might be a crapshoot, but the mainstream guys offer very good performance to my mid-fi ears. Clean, neutral, and even EQ-adjustable when desired. If you can arrange a no-fault return, you're always advised to audition at home.

 

An excellent post that presents the issues that the smaller companies have when trying to market a prepro with HDMI. I respect Parasound very much for shelving their marketing of several HDMI prepros a few years back. Their reasoning was that the proposed prepros were just not dependable enough.

Bill

 

And I wouldn't miss out any of Onkyo's higher end AVRs either. Terrific amps and the company's done wonders to improve the performance and reputation of AV gear for music replay.

 

That is a great idea and one that I recommend to many of my customers who want the best 2 channel performance and still have some HT interfaces.
-Bill

 

I had three Onkyo's (805, 885 and 886) without a single issue with any of them. But I went with the Denon 4311 instead of another Onkyo because of the quality control issues of newer units. I don't recommend Onkyo anymore because they dropped Audyssey and went with a lesser AccuEQ Room Calibration software. Here is a link where AccuEQ is discussed and it isn't very positive especially the fact that the manual equalization adjustments are no longer available. I strongly feel mid to high level AVRs/prepros from Denon and Marantz are much better choices than any Onkyo AVRs/prepros.

Bill

 

Hammerhead,


Are you unhappy with the performance of your AVR for M/C and stereo??

If only stereo then I recommend what Bill Mac said earlier about getting a good stereo pre.

If you are not happy with M/C ..........have you tried listening to your OPPO 103 at analog level?

You may prefer it's SQ even though you will lose access to stuff like XT32 Room EQ.

As you mention 95% of your listening is stereo anyway it looks to me like a dedicated stereo pre would be a better way to go.

No point in buying a new AVR in any case........why pay for all those inferior power amps???

If you do decide to go with a Pre/Pro make sure it at least has a good Room EQ tool.

FWIW I use an Integra DHC 80.3 Pre/Pro which I love but would NEVER use for stereo.


For stereo my OPPO 105 is connected DIRECTLY to my (active) speakers.

Actually there's something you could try!!!

OPPO 103D DIRECT into your McIntosh Amp!!!

If SQ is good enough that you don't mind losing Audyssey..........who needs an AVR or Pre/Pro at all.

Instead of spending you can possibly sell your AVR and be AHEAD with better sound.

Definitely worth trying for stereo at least.

Lastly, If I were you with your gear, I would be seriously looking at hearing an OPPO 105D.

It's a perfect player for you anyway as it's a 103D with a souped up stereo section and it can act as a stereo pre amp and as your A/V hub !!!


Cheers

 

You could do what I did recently with great success. I already had a 105. I bought a used Anthem AVM 50 for about 900 bucks. I use the AVM 50 as stereo and multi-channel analogue pre-amp for the 105. When I use it, I leave all the digital processing and video duties to the 105, which is hooked up directly to the display. I had some other older sources and a new cable box and they all played nicely with the AVM 50's HDMI inputs. The electronics and DACs in the AVM 50 are very good for legacy sources and decoding. I should also add that it will decode linear PCM on up to 6 channels.

In analogue two channel mode with all it's video circuitry turned off I found the AVM 50 to be a fine pre-amp and quite a value. Of course, you could also buy the more recent Anthem pre pro for more money but I see no advantages if you use it as I suggest. If you wish to buy new and don't need any digital processing then check-out Parasound (the 103 can digitally process everything anyway and even has an HDMI input). I believe they make a multi-channel, analogue only pre.

 

I tried the Emotiva and the HDMI bugs drove me crazy, so I sent it back. After a lot of research, I got an Outlaw which, while not as flashy, has proven to be a solid unit that is quietly bulletproof, with HDMI, optical and analog inputs to accommodate my Oppo, VCR, laserdisc, phono and other sources. Nice internal AM/FM tuner, too.
Well worth investigating.

 

They did, but just get a NOS Onkyo in that case, the TX-NR5010, 3010, or the 818 are three good examples. Better amp and save money. They dropped the ball a little after the 2012 series losing Audyssey. That said, still on a par with the other two, comfortably at that and sound quality is significantly above average. Newer models on any of those three are either offering minor tweaks or Dolby Atmos which to my mind isn't going to be a huge deal for users who also want high quality music replay.

 

The OP is most interested in two channel SQ. The Onkyos are lacking in two channel SQ performance IMO. I felt the same with the Denon 4311. With both the Onkyos and the Denon I used a analog preamp with HT Bypass. I like the suggestion of the Anthem AVM 50 which is a fine sounding prepro. I had an AVM 30 that I only sold to get a processor with HDMI when it first came out.

Bill

 

IME yet to hear ANY AVR or Pre/Pro with good enough SQ for stereo use.
I guess using one would depend on personal standards and budget though.
Remember thinking quite a few years back that stereo using my shiny new Onkyo TX-DS 777 AVR was "kick ass"
Then a mate was decent enough to lug over his dedicated 2 channel pre/power separates.

Very humbling and enlightening moment that started my journey to stereo greatness.

 

I'll beg to differ Bill. Onkyo's been turning out better and better gear for years, so are at least on a par with the other two performance-wise and certainly with the feature set (they're all much of a par anyway). The omission of Audyssey is neither here nor there if you don't need it really. And reviews are consistently good. I'm most interested in two channel SQ too, and hence my recommendation. Other than that, it's just two opinions on a website.

Below is a link to a UK website, Gramophone magazine which is predominantly for classical music, but does have a small and dedicated audio hardware section. It's editor is Andrew Everard, a UK hifi audio journalist who's been around for years. He's now writing for Hi Fi News as well as Hi Fi Widow (!) in Japan. This is his review of the TX-NR818, but it also features a brief piece with Norimasa Kitagawa, one of Onkyo's senior engineers (maybe not quite an Ishiwata, but a principal spokesman anyway):-

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/onkyo-tx-nr818?pmtx=biggest-savings&utm_expid=32540977-5.-DEFmKXoQdmXwfDwHzJRUQ.3&utm_referrer=https://www.google.co.uk/


...probably worth pointing out that Andrew Everard also uses an 818 at home. Rather telling I think.


Edit: From the same magazine, a review for the earlier TX-NR609 as well:-

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/editori...ceiver-with-real-appeal-to-the-music-listener

 

Thanks for all the responses friends. To be honest, I have always been happy with the AVR sound of my 4311. But after purchasing the Mac amp which was a deal I couldn't walk away from, I immediately noticed their was much more to be had out of my system. The Mac 7205 was a bit bright at first, (still bolted to the box board when I received it and wrapped in plastic with all the literature), I don't know if it had ever been used. Once it settled in, or maybe I did, the details came out. The layering of each instrument and subtleties of the music content , none being glossed over like before, which I never knew was happening. It was almost like I had been missing out on a lot of the minute background details. Its just too hard for me to judge any "good" equipment without it sitting in my rack, and it tied my own speakers. Anyway, after all that I knew the AVR and its specs were limiting or choking the Mac amp a bit. I figured I could find a pre/pro that was a step above the AVR, but it may be a wash without spending $5K or more. Audyssey means nothing to me. I have never heard it sound good with music in two or multi channel and even though I want to keep a multi channel setup for movies, DVDA's SACD's etc, Audyssey has only dulled the presentation to my ears with its boosts and cuts to the point where details are lost. I think it may be due to the extreme efficiency of my speakers or at least I am throwing them a bone with this excuse. I am not a spec hound, but If I am going to spend what to me is a very good chunk of money, I want some great specs. like the Mac and the Anthem pre/pros. I have heard some great sounding systems that are active with crude, (If I may say that) easily affordable, digital concert style amps, but the details have never been there. I would like to keep the signal chain to a minimum, yet keep it user friendly for my wife and my back keeping a remote control involved. I cant pull off the best the system is capable of this way, but maybe a decent, justifiable improvement over what I have.

 

Have you ever had a quality preamp in your system? I ask as I've had quite a few both solid state and tube all with HT Bypass. With a preamp with HT Bypass one can switch from ones preamp to A/V processor quickly for comparison purposes. Every preamp from the basic Parasound 2100 to my current Rogue Audio Perseus (2nd one as I sold the first) sounded better with two channel music when compared directly to the Onkyos that were in my system. Several friends have similar equipment and all came to the same conclusion that quality analog preamps with HT Bypass all sounded better than their Onkyo AVR/prepros for two channel music. The comparisons were done using the Onkyos in Pure Direct which removes all processing giving an apples to apples comparison.

Bill

 

The more objectives you pile on – and the user-friendly remote is not a small matter – the more obvious the AVR as a solution becomes.

I wouldn't be so quick to assume the Denon is a weak link.

If Audyssey is moot, try this cheap-n-cheerful test. Use your Oppo as DAC/decoder and connect to your Denon via analog. Can't say it will be better or worse, but it will likely be somewhat different. You'll maintain a simple signal path; might even be simpler than before, depending on the Denon circuitry.

I hooked my 103 up to my ancient Marantz AVR via analog, originally as a switching convenience (I listen to music while watching sports). I guess I shouldn't have been surprised that the modern Oppo DACs were a discernible step up from the 15-yr old AVR.

If that reveals an improvement, you might consider moving up to an Oppo 105, for well below $2500.

I do understand the urge to find a suitable mate for a Mac amp.

 

As I said Bill, I'm happy to differ and offer alternatives. The great thing about having an opinion and backing it up, as already done in my earlier post. So you don't need to take just my word for the audio quality issue. Others clearly feel the same, so this is not an isolated example.

Differing opinions, that's all this is.

 

Thank you. You pretty much nailed it.

I have been wanting to give the Oppo 103 a shot at handling this, but was told that the 103 volume control bit rate was compromised set to variable unless its volume control was set at a fixed rate which is full output? The teller of that said that the 105 isn't impeded like this? I'm not going to pretend I am in the know when it comes to a lot including DAC's, so I just try and listen to folks that do. I get the old DAC thing. I have an old Denon CD changer which was top of the line in its day and the best sound source I had for a while, but I can rip lossless to my Mac mini and send to the Denon which somehow I prefer to playing it on CD. Now this does vary a bit from disk to disk, but man somehow the AL24 path of the Denon really builds the material back nicely with the pure direct setting. Convenience sure can mess with the ears too having a bad back and being an album jumper.

 

gdO,

All mentioned in my earlier post #12.

It seems the OP has his own plans now though anyway as WAF has entered the equation.

Cheers

 

The difference is I'm backing up my opinions with actual ownership of preamps with HT Bypass and actual comparisons to Onkyo AVR/prepros. Your choice to not answer my question about having a preamp with HT Bypass in your system indicates that you've haven't. That indicates that you haven't done any such comparisons and offer only an opinion on the Onkyo itself. Posting reviews of the 818 and 609 is all well and good but doesn't back up anything as all it is just another opinion. Those opinions can be from individuals that possibly hasn't heard any gear such as preamps that IMO offer better 2 channel SQ.

When you say "Others clearly feel the same" is also relative to what other gear "others" have listened to. If "others" have not heard any mid to higher level gear specifically used for 2 channel music those opinions are not of much value in the grand scheme of things IMO. If you searched a bit I'm sure you would find as many opinions if not more from present and former Onkyo owners that do not have a high regard for Onkyo's 2 channel SQ performance. It works both ways I'm sure you would agree .

Bill