Reference class preamp for active ATCs

Hi all,

As you might have seen here: Wilson Sasha, Magico S series, B&W 800 series »
I am seriously considering purchasing a pair of active ATCs. I am yet to decide if I can fit the 100s into my living room, if not I will go for the 50s.

They need a preamp of course - and I would be grateful for recommendations.

Requirements:
I found the ATCs to be lacking a bit of resolution, slam and immediacy when listening on low volumes. So a preamp that can mitigate this to an extent would be great

Budget:
Let's say up to 10k GBP / 15k USD --- and I am very happy to buy used. Would even prefer it!

My initial questions and thoughts:
- Tubed or solid state? What would you recommend? And do I need a balanced output?

- Stay in the pro world and get a preamp from SPL?
- Audio Research Ref 5 or Ref 6 preamp?
- Pass Labs XP30?
- Ayre KX 5 Twenty?
- Something from Naim to add this extra bit of Naim groove?

Let's have a shootout!

Thanks!

 

Best SS pre amp is jeff rowland Coherence 2 or Synergy 2i

Music reference for passive pre but id get a jeff rowland if money is no object.


if you want tube, look at VAC, Gryphon, ect

 

What's your source? Does it have it's own preamp capabilities? If so, maybe keep it simple.

Pro-audio for me all the way. Don't forget passive preamps too if you're source is up to it and you just need a switching box.

 

Had never heard of Jeff Rowland. When buying used they are in budget for sure.

I would be playing from a turntable. currently RP6, Dynavector 20x2L and P75 preamp but am not tied to these. Could upgrade at some point. I would be ok with both a preamp with and without phono stage, will make the rest work when I find a preamp that I really want.

 

I haven't a clue. I can share some anecdotes, if you appreciate that I'm hesitant to recommend any brand or model for reasons that will become evident below. I'm a tube guy, so let's get that out of the way. In the archival studios at our Library of Congress (in the remote facility built into the old cold-war bunker in Culpeper), i heard absolute magic listening to old Les Paul direct cut acetates over a big monitor system powered by solid state amps and a preamp that is a modified solid state preamp with mucho EQ curves for all kinds of recordings. I mean real music in the room from recordings cut in 1948.
Ditto, on an archival system using big B&W's playing back digital files of pre-WWII recordings, using a pair of vintage Marantz mono tube preamps (with NOS Teles as I recall) and solid state power amps.
I really think you have to hear the stuff in the combination you are going to buy, or you will be chasing your tail or never sure that you've nailed it. At a certain point, I doubt there is a "best" in isolation. For what it's worth, I was using a Lamm L2 line stage which has a solid state signal path and tube regulated power supply. It sounded real on some recordings over my horn/SET system, and though solid state, it sounded organic. When I changed out the line stage for a couple of others, both big league, the sonics went to poop on one, then to a better level than the Lamm with another. (I currently use something that is not even that common in the States- a Veloce line stage which is tubes run from batteries). When I changed out my phono stage from one highly regarded one to another, another big difference. Was one "'better" than another in my system? Yes, but was it "better" in an absolute sense, taken in isolation? I have no idea.
All of this is a long way of saying, in my view, you can't decide this by some notion of "best in class." What works best in reality, in combination with the particular gear- given your ears, room and pocketbook?
The only other concern I'd raise is the notion that you can compensate for lack of low level resolution or drama or punch simply by the preamp. If you often listen at less than ear shattering levels, I'd make sure you can live with this system, whatever you choose, before you buy. (FWIW, my system gives me all the music at less than blow your ears off levels, but there is a certain volume where everything just 'gels', depending on the recording). Some loss at low volume levels is, I think, inevitable.

 

Yes - I agree. I dont think the ATCs were bad at low levels, but this was the one area where the Wilson Audio Sasha 2s were markedly better. So I thought, whilst agreeing that I wont be able to change this fully, I could try and alleviate this concern a bit by matching!

To your general point -
Let me maybe rephrase my original question: Which preamps do you (all) think work particularly well with the active ATCs (the 50, 100 or 150)? At any price point.
(Sure, that still leaves my ears and my listening habits in the equation, agreed!)

 

Hi,


Don't base your pre search with the sole goal being the improvement of low level listening.

I would expect MOST speakers to have less "slam" when the volume is dialled down!!!

Why even be bothered critiquing low level performance...........

If you want to listen critically...........turn up the volume or put on a set of headphones.

If this is still an issue for you then maybe ATC's are out and you need to look at other speakers.

All active ATC's have a similar sound...........you simply get more and deeper bass as you go up the chain.

I only have an average sized lounge room but my 70's (9" bass drivers) work very well in it.

If you can squeeze 100's in it's probably worth it as their bass response is rated 6hz lower.

Guess it depends on a combination of your room, taste, needs and budget!!!


With regards to a pre.........

Keep in mind that active ATC's have a 10 Kohm impedance and an input sensitivity of 1V so something with a low output impedance should match up better.

I would recommend ATC's own pre and also recommend using XLR connections.

IMHO using a tube pre would potentially negate one of ATC's main strengths (low distortion)

On the flip side you may enjoy the perceived "warmth"!!!!

Really though..........you will need to hear a few different contenders for yourself.


FWIW........I use an OPPO into a Benchmark DAC2 HGC and run it's XLR outs DIRECT into my active ATC's.

It simply sounds BETTER than when I had a $2.5K pre in the system.

Obviously the number of required sources will play a part in which way you go.


Good Luck

 

Thanks!

Will def do a shootout between the ATC pre, the AR ref 6 and the Nagra Jazz as the dealer Can probs get all of these.
Regarding other options I will have to see, but might be able to get more options in once I have the ATCs at home (if I buy them - have now committed to trying the big Geithains as well)

 

Cool..........

With a budget like yours it's DEFINITELY worth leaving no stone unturned!!!

Enjoy the ride.

 

The Decware CSP3 preamp would really suit your needs.

Audiophile Tube Preamplifier / OTL Headphone amp by DECWARE »

 

This is excellent advice from Bill. You are into rarified air here at this sort of budget and matching components will make your system sound anywhere from great to poor, depending on how they match up in your room.

I used to pop into a dealer that sold ATC speakers. They are one of my long time favourites. That dealer really liked matching Audio Research tubed preamps into any ATC system. It worked very well! I liked it enough that I ended up with the SCM 20 Towers for years.

My sense with all of the ATCs that I have heard is that they can lean a little too far into the cold and analytical camp if you match the wrong components. I would listen to the Audio Research full featured preamp in your budget and add a couple more, such as the Audio Note M6 Phono and whatever competing brands your dealer has. Listen in your dealer's demonstration room and start to rule out what you don't like before you hit and miss on the used market.

Good luck!

 

Hi - I don't quite get the point around impedance. Sorry - a rookie question, but can someone perhaps explain what to look out for when matching pre and power amps?

Also, is an XLR connection that same as a balanced connection?

Thanks for enlightening me!

 

OK

the preamp output impedance should be at least 10, some say 20, times lower than the power amplifier input impedance. Tubed preamps usually have an output impedance higher than solid state, and it can be a problem if the power amp or the active speakers have a low input impedance. Audio Research states that power amplifiers connected to their preamps must have an input impedance >20kΩ, while ATC prudentially states an input impedance just >10kΩ. This is the point, but it should not be a problem in this case, I think.

XLR is a balanced connection, but not all balanced are XLR.

cheers!

 

Got it! so basically you'd assume that both manufacturers are conservative on their stated impedance requirements, and therefore it's probably fine to match AR pre with ATC power. thanks!

 

The easiest question to answer is, yes, go balanced if you can. Why? It is what ATC recommends, and it will mean you can save a boatload of money by using any competent microphone cable with some nice Neutrik XLRs. You will also be able to run long cables easily, so could have the pre-amp. close to your listening position.

Tube or solid-state? Only your ears can answer that one (assuming no electrical compatibility issues -- you should check with the dealer and/or ATC if going tube).

You will demo at home with ATC's SCA2 which should be a good match (obviously). If you like it, you could try comparing to ATC's cheaper CA2 which is a quarter of the price (1,500 pounds compared to about 6,000).

I have not heard the Pass pre-amps. with ATCs, but have in other systems. The multi-chassis models are excellent, and very, very low-noise. However, they are considerably more expensive!

Don't know that specific Ayre model, but have used other Ayre amps. in a few systems, and they all proved excellent performers. Again, very low noise.

Naim? Hmmmm! Seems out of place in a system like this.

As the person who suggested spl, let me elaborate for those who are not familiar with them. This pre. is basically the volume control from their state-of-the-art MMC-1 mastering console:

Overview »

This could well be the way to go if you want neutrality, flexibility, high sound quality and to save some money. The price in the UK is going to be just over 2,000 pounds. If you wanted the matching phono stage:

Overview »

you'd need to find another 1,000 pounds, or so, which would leave you something like 6,500 pounds to invest in a new turntable/arm/cartridge, which would put you in SME 20 (or similar) territory! Something to think about.

I'm not a tube fan, but if I was going to consider tubes for such a system, I would look seriously at E.A.R. because Tim de Paravicini is one of the few designers who is equally at home in the Pro and consumer worlds, and his 912 pre-amp. was designed for studio use. The EAR 868 may be all you would need:

ear 868 »

SoundStage! Equipment Review - EAR 868 Preamplifier (5/2010) »

EAR / Yoshino 868 Tube Preamplifier With Phonostage One of the best I have heard! Review By Ron Nagle »

but if you want to go the whole hog, there's always the 912!

EAR 912 preamplifier »

ear912 »

 

Audio Research just announced their more affordable Foundation Series.

LS28 should be available in the month or so. $7500US

Audio Research Introduces Foundation Series »

 

Hi guys,

Now that I am set on getting a pair of active studio monitors I have been thinking...

I will probably upgrade my turntable at some point, and I think I will go for an LP12.

So should I get a Linn Akurate or Klimax to take care of the pre-amp duties? Thoughts?

 

Why not get the best? Convergent Audio Technology SLI Renaissance Black Path Edition with the 45 step attenuator. Dual mono, MM and MC tube phono preamp.

 

I dont know much about this preamp... but wouldn't I be better off on an all Linn (source) system?

 

You might be surprised. I think it was High Robjohns at SoS bought a £100 passive preamp for his studio system. Choose, and spend, wisely . No need to blow the bank and a passive removes the active element, and hence the additional colouration, if that's not something you need.

Edit: seeing as you're in London, check out this guy's work. I'm going to get one of his passive preamps. Hand built, costs are low and might be fun to try them out.

Amp Projects »

 

By all means take a listen to the Linn amps., but they would not be high on my shopping list.

I have not kept up with all the changes/options to the LP12, so when you say 'LP12' do you have a specific configuration in mind? Arm? Cartridge? I used a LP12 for many years (still have it boxed up upstairs). It made music exciting, but I don't think it was exactly neutral. However, Linn may have changed its character over the years, and you have a ton of options with regard to arm/cartridge/phono-stage combinations to tweak the sound as you like. Between the LP12, Rega and the German turntables (Thorens and Clearaudio), you should have a gazillion options just there, never mind considering US or R.O.W. tables.

Best according to whom?

Steve Hoffman echoed the opinions of all the Pros I know in this post:

ATC: I've found the mixing/mastering speaker of my dreams.. »

The only time I have ever seen passive pres. in use is in demos by the makers of passive pres! That should tell you all you need to know.

 

Sound on Sound, and I for that matter, would disagree, so there's two who don't make them and vouch for same! An excellent option.

 

yeah, go active pre amp.

Id take a smooth tube pre amp with ATC. For SS, Id go with jeff rowland pre amp as they are known to be very musical, fluid. definitely some of the best there is for ss pre amp.

 

What's the advantage of an active pre? I was delighted with the simple M Patch I use between my player and the actives I use. No colouration and extremely musical.

 

I am yet to properly look into this... no arm/cartridge combo in mind. This will require a new thread when it becomes relevant, but I am tempted to shortcut the selection process here and only compare Rega RP10 and Linn LP12. I like a bit of rhythm and soul in my music and seeing as my loudspeaker choice will be a very neutral one I might add it on the source.
I say that now though… and in 3 months’ time you will see me comparing 5 TTs in a mega session haha

Anyway – IF I were to go with an LP12, would you guys think that I should go all Linn on the sources, incl preamp? Seems sensible?

Yeah, the AR ref pre is still on the list, as is the Nagra. But when I demoed tube gear lately I got a bit annoyed by the fact that you need to warm em up for peak performance... and that a hot tube amp pretty much acts as a second radiator. not great in summer... so might go SS.