Rolling Stones - BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD

According to CDNow, the remasters have all been released. They do have older copies of these CDs as well according to what their site says: More Hot Rocks, Out of Our Heads, Between The Buttons, Flowers, Singles Collection

 

This is not uncommon. Pre-release materials are often less "enhanced" or "tweaked" than their official release incarnation. CD singles are even often different from their album counterparts, same mix and all, as we've heard various times here. Too bad it had to happen with the Stones. We'll need a lot more information than this before I'm convinced. In other words, are all the albums subjected to the same NR treatments? Some more/less than others? Some relatively untouched? This might be a hit/miss proposition rather than all miss.

As for Ludwig, I haven't liked much of anything he's mastered for a long time now. I do seek out LPs with his initials in the dead wax. Many of these have an awesome sound IMO. As for his using NR, I'm still not surprised. He's giving the customer what they want - guaranteed this was the bright idea of some of the golden ears at ABKCO. He's a businessman 1st, and a mastering engineer 2nd IMO. No surprise.

Too bad about the swishing junk. I'm gonna fence-sit until I hear more (oh, but I might miss out on the freakin' puzzle pieces!)

Mike

 

Keep your comments coming Luke. I like to hear what you have to say. It does not influence one bit what I like or don't like or even what I buy or don't. But I sure like to hear all points of view. Specially from someone who knows tape hiss when he hears it.

BC

 

The puzzle pieces are an ironic thing. It's not the stupid B&W Satanic puzzle, it's collecting all the Stones SACDs and finding out the big differences.

Tom C. listened to Beggars, and while I've never owned an original Decca, Beggars is amazing. So is LIB and Satanic, Metamorphosis. All smiles from me. The UK of Aftermath and the US of BTB give me a mixed feeling, and I'm only 3/4 done with a first listen.

Take whatever opinions you want from any forum member. If you put them all together, you'll get a more important "puzzle". Trust me. So far, personally, I can't disagree with anyone's opinion on the discs. People seem to have been very straight....

 

As I've already said a few times now, it isn't clear if all the albums were subjected to NR or not. In fact (as I've said), based on my initial impressions, it doesn't even seem as if all the songs on BTB have been subjected to it.

 

Luke, if I understand correctly, the sampler came out around the time you e-mailed Ludwig who said he was still working to finish everything. So is it possible more tweaking was done after the sampler was released?

Or is it possible that some of the "missing" noise was not on the master tapes but part of the original mastering equipment? Is it possible that what you are hearing is the real deal for the first time?

Anyway, to put things more in perspective, how do these new discs sound compared to the old ABKCO CD issues?

 

Well I can weigh in here with my view.

I have just completed listening to Hot Rocks Super Audio layer on a SCD-777ES.

I am blown away by how good it is. The sound is dynamic, clear, natural sounding instruments. I honestly can tell you as an engineer that this kind of sound from such old tapes is fantastic. This is now the definitive version to have. Much better than the horrible 86 remasters. I have not compared to the UK vinyl though, but maybe Mike Fremer at Stereophile will comment more on that.

What is most striking?

The guitars on about everything in all their raw glorius duty!
The chorus on You Can't Always Get What You Want - awesome!
The drums on Sympathy for a Devil

I have not listened to Aftermath UK next, but based on Hot Rocks, I am going to buy the whole series.

 

Oh yeah, the guitar on As Tears Go By is very present.

 

Sorry, I just got a different impression from the thread title

 

Any reviews from Ya-Yas, More Hot Rocks and Let it Bleed please!

Joe

 

What would be helpful is for someone with an SACD player to listen to one of these tracks that are supicious NRwise and comment on whether the NR on the suspect track sounds the same on the CD layer and the SACD layer.

(I'm not planning on buying the US Between the Buttons and besides am going away today, so I can't do it myself.)

 

If Ludwig didn't do it, maybe Astley is the blame.

 

Luke,

How do they compare to that Stones Strictly Stereo bootleg CD? Although it's more than a little harsh sounding in spots, it blows away most of the abkco stuff on CD IIRC.

 

Well, I always thought that CD sounded like garbage myself, actually. The original London CDs always sounded better than that.

 

That does seem possible, yes.

No. The version on the sampler CD sounds very natural. The version on BTB does *not*. Not only is there less hiss, but the sound is very uneasy. There's a bit of pumping, as well as that kind of "swishy" NR sound.

Well, I never did have a copy of the ABKCO Aftermath on CD, and the ABKCO BTB isn't a fair comparison, since most of the tracks are narrowed down quite a bit.

I *can* do a bit of comparison between the *London* CD of Aftermath and the new ABKCO disc. Well, what the hell:

Mother's Little Helper - Stereo, and it does NOT seem to be folded in at all. However, *something* was done to make it not sound so disjointed. The bottom end seems a lot louder than on the London disc, and the backing seems to be more balanced with the vocals. I'm not really sure how they did this, but... Also, there's some heavy bass sound in the right channel, which wasn't there before. I don't know if this was due to the EQ, or some type of bass filtering (ala "Rock & Roll Music") or what, but...

Stupid Girl - Not a whole lot different from the London CD, at least on first listen. It *might* be slightly wider than the London disc, but if it is, it isn't by much.

Lady Jane - Narrowed down ever so slightly. There seems to be a mid more midrange on the new disc.

Under My Thumb - Doesn't seem to be narrowed down. The London version seems to have more "bite" to it, while the SACD seems a tad "murky". EQ similar to the previous two songs.

Doncha Bother Me - Not narrowed down. More of the same EQ - the London disc has a bit more top end bite, while the new disc is a shade on the murky side, IMO.

Goin' Home - I really have to think there is some bass filtering going on. In the left channel, the bass sound is pretty much what it was before, maybe even a bit lighter. In the right channel, however, there is a strong bass sound. Previously there was NO bass sound in the right channel. Other than this, the EQ is pretty similar to the other tracks, and it does not seem to be narrowed down at all.

Flight 505 - There's less hiss in the intro on the new disc, but in this case it does NOT seem to be from NR. Based on the overall sound, I'd say it is from the general EQ, which, as above, has less top end than the London CD. Not folded down at all.

High And Dry - More of the same, really. Not narrowed down, similar EQ. Less top end than the London disc, more mids.

Out Of Time - As above. Some may disagree with me, but I really prefer the extended high end on the London CD here. Also, while I don't *think* I hear any noise reduction (certainly not like BTB), the finger snaps in the intro just don't sound right to me. On the London CD they are very clear, crisp, and open. On the new disc, there seems to be somewhat of a "haze" surrounding them. Very strange.

It's Not Easy - What can I say, more of the same. Once again, the London CD has a lot more top end to it. In some respects it feels a tad "thin", but it also feels a lot more "open" than the new disc. Not narrowed down.

I Am Waiting - This sounds pretty much like it did on the sampler disc - not as open, slightly narrowed down. To me, the London disc just sounds more "vivid", while the new disc sounds slightly clouded.

Take It Or Leave It - More of the same! Once again, the bass sound seems to be filtered into the right channel. So, not really narrowed down, but a more "cohesive" stereo picture.

Think - This one probably shows the fewest differences from the London CD. I'm almost ready to say that in this case, the new disc sounds a tad more open. There *seems* to be more hiss on the new disc in this case. Not narrowed down.

What To Do - Similar to most of the disc - less high end than the London CD, not narrowed down.

So, yeah, that's the story on most of Aftermath - less high end, no noise reduction, most tracks not narrowed down, bass filtering on a few tracks. I wouldn't say the new disc is bad by any means, but I think for the most part I prefer the old London CD to it.

 

feinstein, Luke is completely right - your comments were uncalled for. Please refrain from attacking other people's reputations like this in the future.

Instead, if you want to ask him a specific question, such as "Luke - is it possible that your cd player is faulty", that's fine.

HZ

 

My 45 cents. I trust Luke's opinions very much because I know how much time and effort he puts into his research and comparasons. I sometimes may not agree with his conclusions but (even on those rare occassions) his findings/opinions have never been without merit. If Luke says he notices something strange on a disc then I'm very sure that there "is" something there to be noted. It may not be NR or bass fiddling (there could be other explanations or it could be exactly that) but his observations have been noted and very much appreciated...

Todd

 

Thanks Todd! I was looking for a way to express those exact feelings. Even though we can't agree on the MFSL UD1/UD2 thing I do admire and respect Luke's opinion and most of all trust him with something as delicate as the new Stones releases quality.

Post on my friend. I love to know this stuff. Something tells me that I'm in no hurry to dump my Stones German Londons.

 

Luke, How can, presumably, the same set of tapes sound crappy in one format, and not in the other format ?

Naturally, the SACD format would sound "better", but how much improvement could be infused into the same tapes ?

Is the fix in, and did they do a crappy job, intentionally, considering the investment SONY has in the technology ? Considering their well documented desparation about music sales, it's within the realm of possibilities.

 

Well why not just get a few of the titles, and judge for ourselves?

 

Luke's very hard on himself. Take a guy who's worked at a newspaper who grew up with Hot Rocks on LP that his mom gave him. Suddenly, he's heard a bootleg and an import here and there, and suddenly, that copy of Hot Rocks sounds poor and almost vandalized.

Luke, being the "reporter on the scene" type, goes crazy but finds interesting things about the sources of Stones material that doesn't sound like crap. Mostly on imports and stuff.

His efforts bring him into a long-standing effort, then a full blown hobby. All the power to him. It's not fun beating your head against the wall about every little thing, and that's one of the crosses "audiophiles" have to drag around.

Luke's stubborn, and he's gone nutzy on Stereo Stones. Heck, add to it that Abkco's been twice as stubborn and elusive. Luke's a great guy, but PLEASE do base your own opinions. Even I can't afford all 22 SACDs at once and I have an SACD player! All the information that proves I'm not "hearing things" is OK by me!

Abkco Watchdog=Lukpac. Hard to compete with him too!

 

This in no way meant to disrespect Luke - especially because I think HE is the EXPERT on this stuff.

Maybe Feinstein was too harsh and maybe he didn't mean to be so harsh toward Luke-- I don't know.

However, as a group, there is a tendency here to take any criticism of a disc as gospel and esculate it to mean the disc is horrible. Then knowbody even thinks about purchasing it because they know it sounds horrible.

This has happened time and time again here. A good example is the recent Ziggy Stardust reissue: Yes it's not perfect (stereo channels reversed and a missing snippet of sound here and there), but someone sees it was mastered by the Mewtilator and everyone is up in arms. Well, my credibility is on the limb here, but it sounds better than the Au20 and Mew's '99 remaster. Not perfect, but better - fuller bass and midrange and much less bright . I wouldn't be surprised if Mew was miscredited on this release. However, I'm sure no one else here has even considered picking it up. (If you have, let us know what you think).

While people shouldn't automatically buy something because its been remastered, they shouldn't not buy it just because somebody said there's a mastering problem.

Already people are blaming Jon Astley, but it sounds like he just helped transfer *some* material - not master. Who knows what the issue is with BB, but as Luke said, it isn't the whole disc and if you love the album, you should still buy it.

-Gabe

 

All,

There has been mention of noise gating here. Noise gating should NOT cause any swishing sound. All gating does is eliminate frequencies below a certain selected threshhold. It is not the same as digital noise reduction. It could be a tape alignment or damage problem. I really don't think Astley subjected anything to Cedar when he did SOME of the tape transfers. It IS possible Ludwig's guys used some but we will have to find out in the upcoming days and weeks.

Now, I had a dream last night about hunting the stores for those remasters and NOT finding the titles I want. I gotta go and look for those puppies! I'll be back later this afternoon!

 

I saw no Singles Collection either. I did see 12X5 and OOOH (UK) but no US. I think it's all trickling in. Anyone hear JJF on Hot Rocks yet? How was it?