Should I upgrade my EL84 tubes?

I have a wonderful 1959 Fisher X-100 that has been gone through and recapped, and it sounds lovely.

Within the past year I have upgraded the four 12AX7's to '58 RCA black plates and swapped the Sovtek 5AR4 rectifier to a '72 Mullard (Blackburn), and these have substantially improved the Fisher's performance in terms of imaging vividness and midrange bloom.

I'm still running the '80s USSR-made Reflektor EL84's that came with the amp when I bought it. Are these "good enough" or should I be thinking about upgrading those as well? Any suggestions on tubes to replace them?

At this point I don't have a specific budget in mind, so a discussion on "best bang for the buck" EL84's would be welcome.

 

The EL84s you have are rather poor sounding. GE EL84 are far superior and I have tested many EL84s. The GE are very neutral sounding. The 6BQ5 & EL84 are the same tube. GE will mostly be listed as 6BQ5. Brent Jessie has NOS GE 6BQ5 for $40 each and will match for gm (gain) for $80 in pairs. ebay prices are getting out of hand!
Congrats on what I consider the best sounding 12AX7s- RCA black plate. I use the RCA12AX7 black plate in my amplifier. And, the Mullard GZ34 is the best sounding rectifier. You have a very nice vintage amplifier.

 

Brent has also carried Amperex used but good testing EL84s in the past ($50 each). I bought a quad about 5 years ago and they are still going strong in my Pilot 232.

 

I'm throwing this in because I've seen discussions on other forums recently, which is the idea that instead of tube rolling, which can become prohibitively expensive and quickly, what about adding an inline EQ to shape the sound coming out of tube amps? If we are looking to modify the sound profile coming out of the machine, is EQ just as good, perhaps more flexible, than tube rolling?

 

You know it is like a computer- garbage in, garbage out. Upgrade the EL84s and then add an equalizer. But, a SS equalizer can actually mess up the pure sonics from tubes.

 

It has tone controls.
-Bill

 

I think that the Sovtek EL84 sounds great. Some vintage tubes also sound good, but nothing wrong with what you have. They are underrated by the older crowd and tube sniffers, but are very much respected by many, many users world-wide.
-Bill

 

I use only the best sounding tubes regardless of cost. I think I rolled about every EL84 ever made including early 1950s Mullard. If your amplifier is not upgraded with the best parts & preamp tubes, many EL84s 'sound good' including the Sovtek as the fine details & high performance are masked by the factory stock amplifier itself.

When I audition tubes, I only perform it in the best possible sounding amplifiers. A factory stock amp for the most part is a waste of my time and ears.

 

Bumping this in the hope of getting some more input...

So far:

• allied333 says the Reflektors are "poor sounding" and recommends GE's instead
• KT88 indicates that the Reflektors are perfectly fine

 

I've heard it said there aren't really any "bad" EL84s. The $8/each Sovteks the Audio Note Oto (not really a budget product) came with sounded pretty good. The $50/each Tungsram were a worthwhile upgrade, however. A little less boomy.

It's very easy to be biased against all new production tubes in favor of any NOS tube. But some of them will surprise you. Sovteks sound way better then they have any right too.

 

What other EL84s have you used in th Oto and how have they fared? I’ve got one arriving in a few weeks and I’m struggling to not start tweaking it before it arrives

 

I've only used the stock Sovteks and the Tungsrams. The best tube rolling advice I can give for the Oto is to get some 5751 tubes for the preamp section. It has kind of a hot preamp without much range in the volume control, and they tame it some with the stock Sovtek 12AX7WA which uses a lower gain then a standard 12AX7 but not quite as low as a 5751. But if you just roll in your favorite 12AX7 it can end up sounding bad.

In general it doesn't respond as much to tube rolling as much as other amps do. I actually like this - I now have the Signature which has different branded tubes, and I left all the stock ones in place. Of course, they're not messing around with the stock tubes in the Signature, which has NOS Telefunken in the phono stage.

 

@Rolltide Oh! That’s great to know - I’ve actually got a signature coming so maybe I should stop doing all the mental tube rolling exercises. Thanks.

 

Yeah, I think they voice the amp around the tubes and its best to leave them be. You should open it up and see what it has though, as I imagine it changes with the various vintages. Mine uses a Philips JAN 12AU7 as well as two 12AX7 branded "Gold Hero" that have zero information online, but a bright flash on startup the way the Mullard/Phillips tubes do. Another of these plus the Telefunken in the phono stage. No identifiable markings on the EL84s.

 

Awesome. Thanks for the info. I’ll let you know what I’ve got in mine when it arrives.

 

You said in op the amp sounds lovely. So your incline to upgrade output tubes is more based on the old 'sounds good but could sound better maybe?' line of thought imo.

You'll always wonder if you
Don't try some. Folks will say yours are good and others will say they should be improved. But no ones heard your stuff and your room. Find some that people recommend and try them. If you don't like them and they're vintage they can be resold w out much trouble/money lost.
Just my opinion sorry it wasn't about tubes just upgrades in general.

 

I have recently been trying all EL84 tubes I have collected all these years for use in a Leben CS300XS amp.I find the Leben a good tool for testing el84's,12ax7's,5751's etc...
I agree with allie333 that to come to a conclusion , all components and pre tubes must be the best you can have.The Leben uses mullard cv4004(also telefunken ribbed plates) and my phono stage the same in 2nd and 3rd stage, cv4003 at the output cv2493 and A2900 in the psu. With these tubes in the components, it is much easier to understand which output tubes are the best, at least for you.
For me the "best" ones are mullard cv2975,brimar el84,telefunken 7189 and surprisingly rft's.
There are others that are good,but at some point onwards,good might not be good enough anymore.
I kept some reflector 6p14pi & 6p14pi-eb , ei elites, siemens e84l/7320 and sovteks.I listen to them every now and then, but I always go back to the "selected group" I mentioned above.
Someone might think that cost of these tubes is too high for the little Leben, but the result is simply amazing.

 

I just installed a set of the Sovtek EL84M in a Knight Ultra-Linear amplifier and these tubes sounds excellent in that circuit. The same tubes in a an upgraded with PIO coupling caps Grommes amp operating in pentode (not ultra linear) operation did not sound good at all- go figure!

 

Any of the GEs and regular RCAs can be had cheap and sound great and last forever. If you want to spend a little more try some Phillips Black Plates, those and Mullards are my favorites. Stay away from the Teles, their el84s have to be some of the worst tubes they ever made and they fetch ridiculous prices.

 

I like the Sovtek EL-84M.

 

I don't have any Tube Stereo equipment but played and tube rolled an EL84 Guitar tube amp so our needs are definitely different but if you have the $$$ I have read the Amperex and Mullard EL84's are great sounding in both guitar and stereo amps. I run RCA's in my guitar amp as real Bugle Boys are hard to some buy at a reasonable price and I like the RCA's sound. Tungsram Yugoslavia made tubes also get high marks for sound quality and are very reasonable for an NOS tube.

Here is a old shootout in VTV rolls tubes for both applications

Wayback Machine

You might also want to look at higher voltage rated / lower gain 7189 variant of the EL84 which might also sound good in an audio amp application.

If you want to tube roll see if you can get slightly used tubes and/or rebranded tubes which will be cheaper and let you try different brands without going broke. Brent Jessie is a good source for these used/ rebranded tunes that lets you tube roll without breaking the bank IMHO.

 

That would be the Sovtek EL84M I mentioned. From the Tube Depot site: "A military-spec version of the standard Sovtek EL84 - the Sovtek EL84M's extended voltage tolerance - improved plate dissipation - and rugged construction make it equivalent to the RCA 7189. Chosen by Matchless for their designs - the EL84M also features higher transconductance - more power - and longer life than the less expensive EL84 - making it perfect for hi-end audio applications. However - many musician's prefer the regular EL84's warm distortion to the EL84M's tighter - cleaner tone. For all Hi-Fi users - the EL84M is definitely the tube of choice."

 

In addition to recapping the amp, what other services did the tech perform? There are multiple modifications that can be made to the X-100 that will help you get the best out of any EL84 you install.

 

I bought some Russian 6P14 tubes about 6-7 years ago matched Quad for about $25. Sound great. Make "a twinkling " sound when they cool down.
I want to say they have a winged C but they are two hot for me to pull out now and look since they are in use.