So is the Ortofon 2m Black that much of an upgrade/improvment over the Bronze?

I've heard a couple $1000 plus carts in my system. I've got an Ortofon Quintet Black (technically $999), and the 150MLX isn't quite at that level--mostly for the Quintet's amazing bass extension. But the 150MLX is 90% there at 1/3 the price.

All this talk of the 2M Black being loud in the groove on used pressings has me wondering what is wrong with it. Could it be the Shibata tip? I have an Ortofon 540 MKII (FG 70), which is the equivalent of the 2M Black's precursor, the OM40 Super, and it is not loud in the groove at all. You don't need to hear a $1000 cartridge to know good sound, though. I've got a Pickering XLZ-7500S with a self-made SAS stylus (I inserted a broken SAS cantilever into the cantilever of a broken D3000 stylus) and it's every bit the equal of the Ortofon Quintet Black.

 

It's interesting that the Black is very much liked by a lot of people, though it certainly isn't across the board. There was nothing I liked about it at all, but I think part of the issue is it is very critical to install it correctly. In hindsite I doubt I did after learning how to properly mount a cart on my VPI Prime, which took me a couple of hours but has rewarded me with great sound. I wish I had kept the Black for this new table and given it another go, but with a lot of used vinyl I have I don't think it's probably the best choice in my case as the 150 seems to handle little defects in vinyl better. I appreciate your comment that I am likely hearing most of what is in the grooves already. It does seem that way. That's kind of the problem with this hobby...it's always that last 10% that can cost a fortune. Sometimes it's just better to sit back and enjoy what you have. But what would be the fun in that! Anyway, thanks for your post, which I found very interesting.

 

I had the 2M Black installed by the dealer on my VPI table when I purchased it. After getting the table home, I re-checked and adjusted VTA, VTF, anti-skate and leveled the table. I had read many reviews, here and on other forums, warning of sibilance and surface noise issues and was worried that I would not like what I would hear. I am happy to report that I have none of these issues with this cart. It is more detailed compared to my old tt fitted with a Dynavector 10x5 cart but I really do not feel that surface noise has increased and I hear no sibilance whatsoever. I guess I got lucky! I do plan on moving up the chain at some point to a more expensive MC cartridge, but for know I am very happy.

 

Well, it might be closer to 95% if that makes you feel better. I sincerely hope it does. Also, the 150MLX doesn't need a step up, which is a big plus in my book. The Expert Stylus Co Shure M97xE with the sapphire cantilever and Paratrace tip which costs about the same as the 150MLX's street price (before adding in shipping between the UK and the US, anyway), also gets very, very close to the Ortofon Quintet Black. Too bad the wait time from Expert Stylus, sourced to QC problems with Shure, is so long or I'd really give it my top recommendation.

I have a lot of LOMC cartridges, but I really don't run them much. I find that in my system, which may need updating--or maybe my house wiring needs to be updated--the added step up needed to run low output cartridges does increase background noise a teeny tiny tad, which annoys me as I do the bulk of my critical listening through very sensitive headphones. I do love my Pickering XLZ-7500S enough that I will happily look the other way, but I will still "wish" for the black background that is more elusive with low output and tubes. But unless you've got a system that really can remain dead quiet with the additional step up requirement, the increase in performance, once again, comes at the price of something else. As is often the case, the gods of audio give with one hand, but take with the other.

 

I guess I was lucky with my first LOMC. Ortofon Quintet Blue. Simply moved the phono plugs to the MC inputs, moved the selector switch from MM to MC and that was it. The preamp is nothing 'high end'. It is a NAD C162. There is no extra noise.

 

For those of you that have posted that you have multiple catridges, my question is:
1) do you swap them out every so often and have to deal with all the PITA alignment, azimuth, VTA, SRA and tracking issues; or
2)'do you have multiple tone arms you simply swap out with the cartridges pre mounted and balanced?

I was thinking about getting another VPI arm and anther cartridge and trying that way.

Steve

 

That's the way to go. My Prime would be easy to swap arms but they are expensive! I need to just be happy with one cart.

 

I use different headshells and readjust SRA and VTF when I swap. That's about it. Everything else like overhang and azimuth remain the same. I swap a lot sometimes, like ten cartridges a night if I'm doing my own personal shoot out. Other times the same cartridge will stay on for months.

 

I really do think it's my house. I never had noise until I moved here. My stereo was always dead quiet through headphones if I cranked the volume. Not now, though. There's an ever present slight ground hum that is very faint. I've tried a million things and other amps and all kinds of stuff, but it never changes: tube, solid state, this amp, that amp, any outlet in the house--doesn't matter. I think I've just got dirty power or maybe my house isn't grounded as well as it should be.

 

Do you have dimmer switches ? They can create hum. From far away.

 

Actually, not when I moved in. I added a couple electronic ones and nothing changed or worsened. I don't want to threadjack, though. Another odd thing is that if my sub is plugged in my amp produces a constant buzzing sound in my headphones when everything is turned OFF. When I turn the amp on, though, the buzzing stops when the amp warms up. The buzzing will go away completely if I unplug the sub (but the low level ground hum remains). You can only hear it during quiet passages in headphones, but also through the right speaker if you're close to it. Specifically, it's the right side, too. If I spin my headphones around the hum moves to the other side, so it is more noticeable on the right side. This is also the side that generates an FM signal when I use a cheapo (but decent) MC head amp (Little Bear T8-1). There's just some oddball thing going on here in my house. Maybe I've got a ghost, but I'm assuming crappy house grounding. This house is old and so is the wiring. Also, there is new wiring in the basement that looks like it's done well enough--but there is a ton of fluorescent lighting. Doesn't seem to make a difference if it's on or not, so I don't know if that's a problem, either. I had my amp guy go over my amp and he said that it's dead quiet on the scope. Interestingly enough, if I listen to my turntable through the headphone jack on my Bellari Rolls VP129, and not through the headphone jack on my amp, it's also dead quiet--no buzz or hum--dead black quiet--just like I remember from before I moved here. So, when I review cartridges and stuff, I go directly from the headphone jack from the phono stage.

 

A fellow member that posted in this thread before visited my own thread and helped me finding this one. Very nice thread with great information and opinions. I shared my views here, from 2M Blue to 2M Black:
Just bought an Ortofon 2M Black

 

Great

Great Post... you hit the nail on the head!

 

Your not wrong!

 

I own a black which i have installed on my Clearaudio Performance dc table. I also have a Technics sl-1600 with a Stanton 681eee cart which i use as my secondary system and for any vinyl not in at least VG+ cond.

I need to replace the styli on my Stanton very soon and it is almost impossible to find Nos styli for this cart.

A few months back, i inadvertently killed the styli on my 2MB while dusting the table. After some vigorous research i was able to finda new replacement Black stylus for under $300 from an online hifi shop accross the pond. After about 10 days of still not shipping the replacement stylus the company notified me that it was backordered and may take a while so they sent me a brand new in the box 2M black cartridge and stylus. They sell them for $750 and i got it for under $300....

So, i got to thinking that maybe I could buy a Bronze stylus instead of of a after market stylus for the Stanton cartridge on my Technics. I would have to install my 2M spare cartridge on the technics, but it would allow me to sell the 681eee cartridge body to offset the bronze stylus cost a bit, sound better than the Stanton with an after market stylus and i'm thinking that it would be better on my less than stellar vinyl as far as not emphasising the noisier passages in these lp's that the black isnt so forgiving of.

So i guess im asking whether anyone has or knows of anyone with any experience with the 2M line of carts on the Technics SL- line of tables? My other option was to sell the spare 2M black/bronze cart body and try to find a nos stylus for the Stanton 681eee. I want to either use or sell the black/bronze spare cart instead of letting it just sit and get no use

 

I would keep that 2M Bronze/Black cartridge body.

It is a really nice cartridge. I bought a restored and upgraded Vinyl Nirvana Thorens TD-160 Super, with a Rega MB202 arm and a 2M Bronze cartridge.

Later I sourced a Black stylus for a good price from a German seller on eBay.

I use both the Bronze and the Black stylus, as both have their individual sound signatures to bring to the table.

With the Bronze/Black cartridge you can use a wide array of Ortofon stylus'.

You can use the nude elliptical Blue stylus as well as any of the OM series of stylus. The OM40 is similar to the Black on a sound quality level and is a Fritz Geiger cut, for still another sound profile.

Just keep an eye out, you are bound to come across some deals on a replacement stylus.

 

Like every other shibata stylii, the 2M black needs very fine adjustment to sound at its best and avoid distortion and increase in SN.

Dialed in correctly, the cart is awesomely good and a great performer at this price point

 

FWIW, I participated in Fremer's 9 cartridge survey which included both cartridges. I preferred the Bronze over the Black, 2nd and 3rd choices respectively. My 1st pick was the AT 150ANV, which uses an ML similar to the Bronze.

I guess what I'm saying is I prefer ML to Shibata. Since the AT also won the blind survey, a number of other people seem to as well.

 

I wasn't aware that the cartridge could accept anything other than the black or bronze... that changes things a bit. Through more research ive found that there is an excellent replacement stylus for the Stanton 681eee and its less than 40 bucks

 

I don't know anything about cartridges and I can prove it. I also have 69 year old ears, which do not hear all there is to hear. In addition I am poor, there's just not much discretionary income to chase cartridges which are said to reside where the grass is greener. At any rate, I own a Shure V15V-MR, which I purchased over 30 years ago. Since it delivers a performance which I can not distinguish from CD in terms of detail and tone, I'm satisfied with it. Nevertheless, I recall after the Shure was discontinued, lots of articles appeared which proclaimed the Ortofon 2M Black was heir to the MM cartridge throne. These articles ALL suggested however that the Ortofon 2M Black did not please as did the Shure. From reading this thread, it seems there are folks here too young to realize the 2M Black has been around a long time, it was not the last word, or that since its appearance technologies have improved to deliver higher quality carts at less cost. This makes me wonder why folks still entertain the 2M Black as it appears they do when there are MM carts out there today from Nagaoka and A-T which incorporate state of the art Micro-Line stylus design and sell for less than the 2M Black.

 

I think that the issue that most have is the sheer variety of cartridges on the market. People will spend for a good cartridge but there is apprehension over spending a lot and then being disappointed by thier choice.

I bought my black after reading reviews over a several day period. I think a lot of folks focus on the Brand/models that get mentioned regularly, and the 2M black is one such cart.

I'm also poor and thus dont have the luxury of owning several carts or auditioning several carts so my choice is important initially as ill have to live with it for a while.

Cartridges are like books or novels in such that you wont know whether you like it or not until you have delved into it a bit...

I love my 2M black, but again i dont have anything other than my vintage Stanton to compare it to.

Im sure there are others i would prefer at a better price. I just dont have the means to explore them

 

Look if you read everything everyone is saying you would notice that very few have gone from bronze to black. I did an interesting experiment. And challenge all the critics to try this before actually commenting because there is a big difference between 'I think' statements and 'I know' statements. So what I did was pop a red stylus on the blacks body. And I'm sorry all but that jaw-dropping experience you all are describing actually comes from the body not the stylus. So I noted that when playing this hack with some Jazz mmm say Jimmy Smith, I noticed that it was more so as if I was in the band playing along (Im a muso so this is my reference). You also notice the dynamics change (not loud or soft like musos say but its the relative difference between sounds) Soooo you can perceive Jimmy bashing out some loud notes while the percussion is softly going in the background but does not lose sound quality. To use another music term, the reds body seems to mush stuff into background reverb. The lack of added reverb is what the jaw-dropping moment is. Now before the know it alls with no lived experience in doing this experiment arch up with all their 'I think' statements I better give a good counter-argument. When I slapped on the new Metalica S and M 2 album (WOW ITS AMAZING!), the limitations of the reds stylus came through. I have noticed that the reds stylus falls over the min you put it on something that contains lots of sounds at the same time. So anything orchestral and beyond the typical 5 man band scenario, you will notice that instrument separation starts to fall apart and the only thing you really hear are some mushy strings and brass. Woodwinds disappear into the 'reverby' background. Also if you go to orchestral performances you will note that the volume of the sound is not incredibly loud (No conductor would encourage loud over delicate not even for Beethoven or Mahler!) but the red seems to make it sound boomy because its just not picking up and separating the sounds- it's mushing them together. Why do people say the black sounds more bassey? Well, I know this is the case because when you know your way around an eq you know that when you reduce the high frequencies, the lows are perceived as louder. Its the reason why when you are mixing live sound you always start your eq at 0 and you pull back the opposite end of what you hear as needing correction for many reasons I wont go into on here. So the black needle aka the Shibata was designed to pick up the high frequencies and it does this very well. So well in fact that you will reach for your eq and pull the highs down. SOOO like I said earlier you will then perceive the lows to be louder when doing this. Increased highs give you a false perception of clarity in the lower registers. This is a cruel trick that most high-end gear does to give you the illusion that their expensive stuff actually sounds better. So this is why people would say the bronze sounds more mellow. So from this my advice is you don't need the black. You need the body. Go with the bronze and learn how to use your eq correctly. If you can find some dude who is getting rid of his black body because he just can't afford a new stylus GET IT and shove the red on it. I can guarantee that you won't be listening for Leonard Bernstein's conducting style of bringing out percussion over sloppy strings and you'll most likely be listening to the 5 person band set up....though Metalicas S and M 2 album will demand more but that's the exception to your norm (The blue may help but thats an 'I think' statement for me, not an 'I know statement' so Im not going there!). Ortofon conveniently wont tell you this because they want your money. They peg the success of the blacks sound on the stylus not the body. Dont be duped.

 

I often preferred my Blue stylus in the Black body over the all Black.

 

I’m going to have mine redone by soundsmith....since it is a mass produced item it does lack some refinement...IMHO

so I’m thinking mix the liveliness of the Stock black with the precision of the guys at soundsmith....could be interesting...

 

I put a Red stylus in the Black body and I thought it was actually pretty amazing.