Sound very low on headphones [Rega P3 > Bellari VP129 > Sennheiser HD 439]

Hi all,

First time post, long time lurker.

I've been collecting vinyl for the last 11 years, and last week, I finally got around to purchasing something to play it on. Got everything on eBay, with the exception of the Sennheisers, which I've had for over a year.

Got everything all setup, took way too long selecting which album would be the lucky first, (SPOILER ALERT: it was SPOON 'GA GA GA GA GA') put the headphones on annnd....it's low. I turn it all the way up to MAX, and it's still pretty low. Sounds great! But low.

So, on a whim, I grabbed my apple earbuds, plugged em in the back of the Bellari, and BOOM! it's loud. I guess I need to order new phones? Why would the Sennheisers not go as loud as the earbuds? I hear great things about the AKG 240 MK II phones...will they be loud enough?

And thanks to all of you for all the awesome information you guys have doled out over the years.

Right now, it's just the tt and phones. I look forward to slowly building a simple yet respectable system.

 

The HD 439 is efficient (112dB @ 1kHz/1Vrms) and 32 ohm. They should be able to get loud from most any source.

One possibility is that the 1/8" to 1/4" adapter you are using on the Senns is not working properly and has a poor connection. Is it the type of adapter that screws on? It may not be screwed on completely.

Try the headphones in another device that has a 1/4" headphone jack and see if the Senns get loud enough.

If it is the adapter you'll need to buy a replacement. Which should be expensive (a few bucks). I've had adapters go bad. It happens.

 

You appear to be using a Denon DL-110 moving coil cartridge. While it's one of the higher output moving coil cartridges (at 1.6mV), it won't reach the same output levels as an moving magnet cartridge will (usually 3 to 5 mV). The Bellari is designed more for moving magnet cartridges, so perhaps it doesn't produce a strong enough line level to drive your Sennheisers...but it might be strong enough for the earbuds.

A few options:
1. Upgrade to the Bellari VP-530, which can handle both moving coil and moving magnet cartridges. That should produce a louder signal.
2. Change to a moving magnet cartridge with higher output.
3. Run the preamp through a power amp or receiver (or a headphone amp), to amplify the signal for the headphones.

 

Phono preamps aren't designed to drive headphones. Even the headphone jack on the Bellari is nomially for 8 ohm impedence...the Sinns are 32ohm....that's a huge volume drop.

 

I've got the VP130, also rated at 8 ohm headphone out, and it's got plenty of power to drive 32 ohm headphones. Im using the Sennheiser HD555 with it.

 

The headphones are supposed to be much higher impedance than the output impedance. The sweet spot is supposedly 8 times.

 

Good catch. It could be that the Bellari doesn't have enough gain for the MC cart.
The Bellari manual for the VP129 says it has 30dB of gain. Probably not enough for a HOMC cart I'd guess. I don't know how much gain the headphone amp section of the Bellari has.
http://www.rolls.com/pdf/M_VP129.pdf

 

The 8 ohm output impedance isn't an issue. Not ideal. But not a problem either.
The 8 ohm output impedance will alter the frequency response characteristics of the HD439. Making them a little more bassy than they are designed for and the bass a little looser due to less damping factor from the amp. The 8X rull of thumb is to minimize the effect of the output impedance altering the designed for frequency response of the headphones. If you don't mind the frequency response of the headphones being altered it is not a big deal. My gut instinct is that the headphone output of the Bellari is fine and more than powerful enough for the HD439.

Measurements and specs for the HD439. It measures and specs pretty good.
http://en.goldenears.net/11143

 

That part I bolded is what I was trying to say, in response to the reply I quoted.

Regarding the phono input...The advice in an earlier reply to get a phono preamp with an MC stage is not really the right way to go. It would also alter the sound.

 

I have the Senns HD439 too, and many times I had the feeling that they weren't performing on spec. They are supposed to be 112dB @ 1kHz/1Vrms and 32 ohm, but for some reason I have to turn the volume significantly higher on my amp when I use them, compared to my ATH-M50X, which are rated 99db at 38 ohm (and by significantly, I mean 9-12 db louder). Roughly the same when I compared them with Sennheiser HD558 and 598.

FYI I got the HD439 refurbished (they don't have the detachable cable). Maybe it's got something to do.

 

Thanks for all the input so far.

I'm very bad with the technical stuff.

I thought I would be able to crank my phones through this preamp.

Do I need more juice? Or should I try a different set of phones?

I'm gonna order those AKGs now and see if there's any noticeable difference.

 

Weird. The HD439 should be more efficient than the AudioTechnica M50. InnerFidelity has measured both:
HD439: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/SennheiserHD439.pdf
M50: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/AudioTechnicaATHM50B2012.pdf
HD439: Volts RMS required to reach 90dB SPL: 0.047 Vrms
M50: Volts RMS required to reach 90dB SPL: 0.073 Vrms
But differences in perception vs. measurement is not that unusual. Still weird.

The InnerFidelity measurements show that the HD439 treble drops off more than the Goldenears masurements. Maybe it's the difference in treble response between the HD439 and M50 that is partly responsible for the perception of different volume and sensitivity?

 

I don't think your problem is the headphones. More likely it is that the phono section of the Bellari doesn't have enough gain for the Dennon MC cart. But not ever having tried an MC cart, or that particular cart, on a Ballari I don't know. I have heard the Bellari with an MM cart and with headphones. It got plenty loud. And the headphone amp section was more than powerful enough (using $40 Koss UR40 headphones).

Schiit Audio recently released their Mani phono preamp (within that past couple days). It has adjustable gain for the phono stage and is able to handle MC carts. It might be an option. It's $129. Doesn't have a built in headphone amp. Would need a separate headphone amp, like a $99 Schiit Magni.
Schiit Mani: http://schiit.com/products/mani-phono-stage

I'd try a different phono preamp or a MM cart (maybe a something like a 2M Red by Ortofon) before trying a different headphone.

I don't own a Bellari so I'm not sure what carts best match with it.

 

The DL-110 reportedly has an output of 1.6 mV. Rega lists their Elys cartridge at around 7 mV. That's much closer to the output a preamp with 30 dB gain needs. For 1.6 mV output the preamp gain should be in the mid- to upper 40s.

 

The Bellari doesn't do MC carts without a step up transformer.

 

How/where would I go about obtaining a step up transformer?

Do I need to have a preamp, headphones amp AND a speaker amp, (for when I someday buy speakers)?

 

Bellari makes a step up transformer, but honestly, it would be easier and less expensive to replace your cartridge or your phono preamp.

If you put an Ortofon MM cartridge on, or another MM cartridge, you'll be able to use your current preamp with your headphones.

And yes, if you want speakers, you'll need to add a power amp, integrated amp, or receiver.

 

So you change the Senn headphones to another, easier to drive set and it is plenty loud? Get a set of Grados. They are easy to drive, affordable, and sound great.
-Bill

 

The issue isn't the headphones, which are 32 ohm. I think Grados are the same or similar in that respect, no?

 

Step-up transformers work with low-output cartridges. The DL-110 is a high-output MC cartridge. It has sufficient output to work with many phono stages designed for MM cartridges. However, it has too much output for a step-up transformer. High-output MC cartridges are not intended to be used like a low-output MC cartridge.

 

What about if I just traded in the Bellari in exchange for the Schiit Mani preamp & the Schiit Magni phones amp?

 

That's good info for the OP.

 

I don't have experience with the Mani yet (few people do), but it looks like that will probably be a good option.

 

That could work. The Mani phono preamp is new so few people have heard it. Don't know yet how it sounds and matches with various cartridges.

The Magni headphone amp is actually quite powerful even though it is a bit small. It has a highish gain and can do 1.2 watts to a 32 ohm headphone (that's a lot of watts for a headphone). It can easily overwhelm sensitive headphones. Your HD439 would be considered sensitive. You'll only get to use a very small portion of the volume knob. Turning it only a little bit to get loud enough. And if you did turn to volume to full volume you could blow the headphones. The Magni amp is better suited to less sensitive headphones. Inconvenient to use with sensitive headphones.

The Schiit Asgard 2 amp has a gain switch on the back. High gain and low gain. In low gain mode it is better suited for sensitive headphones than the Magni. But it's also $249 rather than $99.

The iFi Nano iCan might be a good choice. It also has adjustable gain settings for high and low gain. Not as powerful. Better suited for sensitive headphones. But not well suited for less sensitive headphones or "hard to drive" headphones. Not enough power for the hard to drive headphones. It's $179.
http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/nano-ican/
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-161151-ifi-nano-ican-headphone-amp.aspx

There's other headphone amps that could be considered too.

Headphone amp choice would depend on what headphones you want to use with it now and what you may be thinking about in the future.

And yeah, this all does get more complicated than it really ought to be. Being concerned about gains and combinations of gains and what combination will get along with other gear you have or may want. Unfortunate complexity.

Two directions to go:
Get a phono preamp like the Schiit Mani that can handle MC (moving coil) cartridges and get a separate headphone amp
Keep the Bellari and switch to a MM (moving magnet) cartridge that is suitable for the Bellari

 

I have the same issue with a Grado Sonata Reference. I switched to a Moon LP-3 and all is good. What is the deal with the Bellari?