Speaker Placement - Wide or Narrow?

I've been enjoying a pair of Ohm MicroWalsh Talls for quite some time now, REALLY enjoying them, but recently I've been experimenting with different placement options. I found that making the speakers more narrowly spread, the result is a thinner sound, a more jumbled image and soundstage, and overall a worse sound. About five feet apart, the sound overall is better, but the imaging is SIGNIFICANTLY better. This is where I've had it for the past couple of months. However, today I moved the speakers approximately 8ft apart, and the imaging was extraordinary! The bass was also much more dynamic, and the soundstage was magnificently wide and 3-dimensional! I was able to not only pick up placement of instruments, but the angles in which the sound was coming from within that soundstage. It was wonderful on my pressing of Coltrane's Dakkar.

However, I then noticed when I put on a few rock albums, that the drums were mixed in such a way that the cymbals were predominantly on one side, and the toms on the other! This wasn't very annoying at all when the speakers were closer together, because the difference wasn't as substantial. Now, however, it seems as if the drum set is more than seven feet wide.

I start this thread to ask how some of you guys strike a balance between wonderful imaging, while still being able to satisfy the often-occuring issue of having an unrealistically-wide drum mix on some albums. Is this something one simply has to deal with, or is there a method of upgrading or placement that can fix this issue? I tried to move the speakers closer together at very small increments, but once the speakers became a foot closer together, the soundstage and imaging immediately collapsed back to normal. Keep in mind that my speakers are omni-directional and project not just forward but also to the left, right, behind, and ABOVE as well!

Thanks in advance for any tips/suggestions.

 

Aman how far away are you from your speakers? Try keeping them 7 to 8 feet apart,
but move your listening position forward towards your speakers, about 1 foot at a
time. Hope this helps, let me know.

 

For my nearfield listening in a near rectangular room I found the Cardas Room Stup to work perfectly for an even balance of imaging, staging and definition.

 

I'm about 10 feet away from the speakers.

Thanks, I'll check that out and use it as a reference!

I appreciate the suggestions thus far, guys.

 

What's that? Are your walls slightly curved?

 

It depends on the speakers, I guess.

After experimenting with placing my Spendor SP/2s, I found they sounded best when I and the speakers formed an equilateral triangle; i.e, they were spread apart as far as I was from each speaker. This was much further apart than I would have guessed, but the fill between the speakers and the sense of natural space was far superior to a narrower placement.

I was also surprised that no toe-in sounded best. Go figure!

 

Doesn't that follow Blumlein's theoretical rules fairly closely with a slight consideration for the lack of dispersion in our speakers? Mine's similar, but I wish I had a bigger triangle. I feel uncomfortably close sometimes at about 8' away, but the imaging and focus are superb.

 

See also:

My favorite speaker placement formula...

Please explain to me what the different parameters of speaker placement do

 

Hey that's a pretty nifty layout. Following the

"For those who must know more...
CAUTION: THIS MAY MAKE YOUR HEAD EXPLODE!"
link is a number of different scenario layouts including Near Field Listening Position and Final Focus which is about what I've arrived at through experimentation.

Aman, I've found that anytime I've made an upgrade somewhere in the audio chain I've also had to adjust the position of my speakers. Sometimes they eventually end up back where they started such is subjectivity.

 

I go with the equilateral triangle method as ZenArcher mentioned. But certain types of speakers need to be further away from walls, both behind or to the side. If moving your listening positon forward is not an option, try moving your speakers further apart or just bring them forward into the room a bit more. Also, as Zen mentioned, too much toe-in can cause the soundstage to collapse.

 

IMHO no formula is reliable in this area. The Cardas Golden Rule is designed to minimize adverse interaction with the rear and side walls. I think it successfully minimizes interactions, but also results in a speaker placement that is narrower than many listeners prefer. (It also may be too narrow for those of you who, like me, have a widescreen in between the speakers.)

Most speakers will easily provide a center image between speakers that are more widely spaced, and many listeners (including me) find the wider soundstage to be more enjoyable. The limits to width are (a) interaction with the side walls (standing waves), (b) sounds, particularly highs, starting to focus on the speakers (play around with toe-in and, if you can, the settings on the tweeters), and (c) the mixes of recordings to which you often listen. Aman is on the mark in noting that drums on rock recordings often become unrealistic on a system set for a wide soundstage.

 

I have my AR-3's about 8 feet apart, slightly angled inward. I sit about 5 feet away from them.

 

The equilateral triangle rule is a good one to follow. Most speaker manufacturers follow this when designing the horizontal directivity of the speakers. Most speakers are also designed to measure flat on-axis, so no matter where you place them, start by aiming each speaker toward you.

Absorbing or diffusing side-wall reflections then becomes critical, and ceiling/floor reflections after that.

My guess is that the improved bass response you here is not attributable to the distance between the speakers, but it is due to their new location in the room, and how they interact with room modes. The omni-directional radiating pattern of the Ohms will have other effects on the soundstage, but these speakers will be just as succeptable to room interaction as any other.

I believe that as you get closer to ideal speaker placement, you will more-accurately reproduce what the mixing engineer intended. If they intended a 20-foot-wide drumkit or piano (both are very annoying and unnatural to me), you will hear this better.

 

I set up my speakers in a way that is very near what Cardas recommends, and I achieved very good smooth frequency response, especially in the bass region, with no obviously discernible room resonances. And this is without corner traps or other acoustical treatments. I may add treatments later to improve matters even further. But I am very happy with the setup as it is. Regarding distance between speakers, it can still be narrow or wide (relatively) with this setup - you just move your listening position forward or back to get that right. In my case the distance between speakers is a wee bit wider than the manufacturer's recommendation (the triangle scenario), but I still get good center focus. I have older NHT speakers with the 21-degree angled baffles, so they can be situated farther apart, and the toe-in is already built-in, so to speak. I got lucky with the dimensions of my listening room as well - I didn't design them, but they are nearly in the same proportions as the theoretical rectangular ideal for minimizing resonances. I sit about 8 feet from the speakers. I consider this almost near-field listening. One of the great benefits of this is that direct radiation from the speakers dominates. Side reflections are much lower in amplitude by comparison so they don't muddy up the imaging and sound-stage. The only disadvantage with my speakers is that the treble is emphasized more with relatively close on-axis listening, so they can sound too bright on some recordings.

 

No, I've got an extended closet on 1 side that if removed would leave the room a rectangle.

 

Go to code and draw me an ASCII picture.

Code:

---------- speaker back wall --------
|                                   |
|        X                 X        |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|               chair               |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|----------|                        |
|  closet  |                        |
-------------------------------------

 

When I turn Zeppelin up really loud and it doesn't matter where my speakers are

 

Stereo playback relies on what is called the 'phantom' center image. The distance apart the speakers are, among other things, influences the center image. Too far apart, and the center image becomes small and weak, and as such will emphasize the stereo qualities in some recordings. This can sound really cool, but is not necessarily accurate. Too close together, and the center image is too large and too loud. Combine with this the influence of the room itself, how the speakers are pointed, as well as objects between the speakers. The best way to determine the speaker placement is by experimentation, yet another outlet for audiophile neurosis. Was position 'A' better or worse than 'B'?

 

Speaker ie. back wall
-----------------------------
| |
| |
| |
| X X |
| |
| |
| |
| |
------ | / |
| |
------ | |
|
-------| |
| |
| X [listening] |
------------------------------

/=couch coffee table etc.

Not exactly as posted, but as close as I can make it with text.

Edit: Crap Geoff, I don't remember how to stop the stupid one space only software of SH Forums. I'm not tech orientated.

 

Hope this one works.

Well apparently not. Jesus Murphy, can't anyone invent a program that displays exactly what you type? (throws up hands, walks away)

 

Dave, that's why I said go to CODE. Here's the best way. Open notepad and set it to a fixed width font (like Terminal or Courier) and draw your picture. Don't use TABs. Then come back to SH Forum, start with {CODE} and copy in your picture; then finish with {/CODE}. (Use square brackets of course). It will make that little box for you. Preview is your friend.

See if I can figure it out though.

 

Whoops - typing at the same time. Well you've got the CODE bit figured out. Don't try it inside our editor though. Go to notepad.

 

Code:

---------- speaker back wall --------
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|         X              X          |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|                                   |
|---------|    couch                |
|  closet |                         |
|---------|                         |
|                 X                 |
-------------------------------------

I can't figure out the X behind the couch. What's that?

Well you sure have your speakers pulled well out into the room - I like that. The closet sure seems weird - is this diagram to scale?

 

That's Steve Hoffman telling him what to listen for!

 

Dang! I need to git me one o' them x'es!