Speakers. Jumper wires instead of supplied plates. Any sonic benefits?

Very well said and you make a very good point.

Bill

 

When I replaced the plates on my old B&W CDM 7 SEs with the lower-end JPS jumpers ($350 I think at the time) there was a significant upgrade in SQ. I took those same jumpers out to a pal and we installed them on his Paradigm Signature S8s there was another upgrade--my friend about jumped out of his skin. (He subsequently bought the JPS top-of-the-line Aluminata jumpers, as I did when I upgraded to the B&W 803D. Those are not nearly as costly ($850 list when I purchased) as the Nordost Odins that Brother Rael sarcastically linked to. Terrific stuff (the whole Aluminata line--see Art Dudley's Stereophile review) but be forwarned that the Aluminata jumpers are incredibly stiff and take some work, and finger strength, to mold into the appropriate "U" shape.

 

Somebody nearly jumped out their skin? That's a new one. Makes a change from "the wife walked in".

Edit: Okay, that was sarcastic!

 

I would think it would generally depend on if the material you are changing to is a "better" design or a "higher quality" material. In my case the bumper plates were simply lacquer coated solid brass plates. The first set of new jumpers were a braided wire, and the second set were solid Alumiloy.

I did have occasion, in a slightly altered context, to go the "other way" quite by accident once. I made a change in my setup which required a longer IC (than 1m). It was the evening and I ran up to Speaker Shop and asked for something longer and inexpensive because I was hurting for cash at the time and I figured I could "make do" with a $29 IC as opposed to the (perhaps) $50 or $60 IC I'd had (I think the cheap IC was the bottom of the line Tributaries and the more "expensive" I think was the Audioquest Topaz).

Well that lasted about three weeks. The harshness and the grating I was getting from my system was driving me crazy and in frustration I went back up to Speaker Shop and the only "good" cable they had in stock that was 1.5m long was the JPS FX...and the cost was $395. To show you how desperate I was I bought that FX then and there. And installing that cable was instantly transformational. Life was good again...and I'd learned an important lesson: cables DO matter.

 

It's a manner of speaking. You might consider that people do employ various linguistic devices when they communicate.

 

Agree with everything in your post except the last sentence. From my own experience I can say my system can sound different on different occasions. Most of the time I hear a very cohesive, resolving system playing music for me; keeping me riveted to the music. There are some times however, when what I hear just doesn't keep me involved in the music; the detail and imaging which normally catch my attention seem to be missing.

With no change to the system from session to session, I doubt there;s a measurable difference. I chalk it up to my head.

 

I was being facetious old chap. You might consider that.

 

Surely some expectation bias must have come into play there...

 

Exactly, it's in your head - a subjective experience of something that hasn't actually changed. It sounds like you are agreeing to my sentence after all?

 

I think that that possibly has some explanatory merit in the very short term. But the fact was I had been experiencing my system for a long time (months or even years) with the Audioquest cable in place. I honestly had expected little to no change at the price point (not like going from $50 cable to a $1K cable, for instance). And I put that longer cable in place and I don't even recall if I sat down to listen to any great degree (this was maybe 17 years ago). I will say that I don't recall that there was anything immediately apparent to me when I next sat down for some serious listening. All I am saying is that over the next several weeks the system became no fun to listen to and I was trying to pinpoint identifiable sonic qualities. Those negative qualities disappeared with the JPS cable, immediately, and they stayed gone.

Look, I've been in these silly discussions and listened to all of the arguments from all of the naysayers and I refuse to go there any more. I've put some of those members on ignore because it is clear they don't have much of a life other than being an internet thorn in people's sides. As many people have said, do what you want to do with your own gear, okay? It's fine by me! I have pursued the hobby my own way all my life and I will continue to do so. I find the changes I decide to invest in do make a difference and at the same time will acknowledge the law/rule of diminishing returns. THAT is a fact in my book.

 

Fair enough, but this is a writing medium, not a vocal one, and it came across as sarcasm, which is considered an aggressive (attacking) form of communication.

 

Well it wasn't intended that way, so my apologies that you misconstrued my intention on the back of my words.

 

Beyond your initial contribution to my original question that (I quote) "subjectively couldn't hear any difference" you switched to waging the crusade of scientific approach. Is the forgone conclusion then:
"because you couldn't hear the difference therefore there must be a scientific proof that there's no difference".

You also haven't provided any details of what tests you have done and with what equipment.

Using only measurements in Hi-Fi to draw conclusions about sonic qualities of particular unit/device is very problematic proposition.

Are you saying that you are making your buying decisions based on spec sheets?
Do you frequent hifi shops with the measuring equipment? Trusting someone on the "internet" who already did those measurements for you?

Well. Good luck.

I'll use my ears and open mind instead.

Kind Regards

 

And yet you'll hear dissenting opinions on the mastering of titles despite all the posting of graphs etc. How can that be when the graphs show us the supposed truth ? Are those people deaf or nuts or what ? Maybe we're missing something here... but even saying that would be heresy, right ? Meet me at the stake.

Bringing things into the discussion which no one is discussing to discredit people whose opinions differ from yours makes for a weak argument. Calling dissenting opinion " nonsense" is weaker still. One man's nonsense is another man's dogma. And I must say that when the type-A's who infest this hobby get into these audiophile slap-fights, it's pretty much never the subjectivists who start flinging the poo although by the end, everybody's wearing it. The OP was pretty clear in what he was setting out to glean from this thread but you guys can never control your impulse to wade in and start ministering to the ignorant brutes who don't share your views. Who exactly is evangelizing to whom here? Please....

Not discarding. Questioning. It's different. That's what moves the species forward. Until I have heard an explanation as to why I hear what I do which satisfies me, I will continue to have questions. Why does that get some of you so lathered up ? Scientific fundamentalism is a thing, as counter-intuitive as that may seem.

D.D.

 

I am bi-wiring my speakers, so there's no need for jumpers or plates. Resistance is 1/2 with respect to single cable, and that's the real deal.

 

It's not the questioning that's the issue, it's the conclusions in some cases, and the dubious products offered in others. £20 for some cable jumpers is no biggie, a neat solution and nobody cares.

£5,600 is another story, hello Nordost, and then it's a different game.

I think explanations are very often offered in audio-philia land, but it's perhaps the willingness, or lack thereof, to accept an explanation.

I have no idea why someone perceives a difference relative to two different products. I'll grant minor differences are probably notable with things like accessories for cables, I'll willingly concede that people do detect a difference, but the magnitude of that perceived difference is governed by our ability to describe the experience in the written word.

So the reference to the person who nearly jumped out of their skin tells me nothing relative to how that person normally reacts to change. It would appear that they're quite jumpy, or easily surprised, or have a limited field of expertise or knowledge. And if the change really was that great, I'd suggest there was a problem with the gear in the first place.

Edit: and what the hell do anyway? These days, I use actives and the only jumpers I need to bother about are the ones I wear when it gets chilly in the winter!

 

This is a "no end in sight" topic. Soldier on.

 

Rael,

How about I just say he got "real excited"? He ordered the Aluminata jumpers the next day after finding a pair on Audiogon, I think for $500 or so? (I'd have to ask him..He swears by Audiogon). I think I eventually scored my SECOND jumper upgrade (to the Aluminata jumpers) for less than that--perhaps as little as $300?

Both of our systems are primarily cabled with JPS Aluminata (although my speaker cable is Superconductor 3) and both systems sound quite outstanding...at least until the next attack of upgraditis strikes each of us in turn.

 

Absolutely correct. Our sense of vision is far more precise that our sense of hearing can ever hope to be.

If you could not compare the paints side by side (since our brains cannot process to audio signals playing simultaneously) you could get the paint reasonably close if you could instantly flick between any two color chips. Or in other words A/B the colors.

The color chart example is easy: The amount of variations in an complex audio signal is on the order of infinity, as compared to the negligibly small number of 37.

This is why instantaneous A/B is beyond any doubt the only possible way to make comparisons between audio equipment reasonably meaningful.

 

It would be very simply to arrange such a comparison scientifically:

You would measure the same speaker in an anechoic chamber twice: One test with jumper plates, the other with wire substituted.

The measurements of one (presumed inferior - in this case, response measurement taken with jumpers installed) would be subtracted from the other and the resultant components would represent distortion as a percentage.

I would be utterly dumbfounded the amount of distortion resulting from the swap yielded anywhere near 1% which is well below the threshold of human hearing for distortion. Not to mention the fact that even the very finest of loudspeakers have distortion of 3% or even higher.

 

Yeah, that color testing ranged from instantaneous up to two seconds, which is where even the test subjects with more highly tuned observational skills lost any ability to distinguish.

That said, I seriously doubt that the sort of nuances we might distinguish would ever show up on an audio measurement in an anechoic chamber. Small peaky distortions, and the sort of changes people hear would, IMO, be completely negligible in a measurement. Now, a speaker cable that had very low impedance might prove to give a measurable volume increase, but that's about as far as my imagination can take me.

Still, I hear a variety of nuances in setting up audio gear that I'm pretty certain we have no way of measuring. It also takes very specific listening targets to note the changes. I have very high quality binding posts with decent jumpers—lower mass at least. I had a set of Wireworld Oasis 7 jumpers, which were 28 AWG if i recall, and I noted no significant change is sound quality. That said, I spent very little time even considering the difference. Now, a simple raw wire might have been the better choice as it would forgo a great number of spade or banana connectors in the process. I simply can't say as I traded that Oasis cable in for a double run of cheaper cable by the same maker. That change, to my perception, actually helped a bit.

For me, I'm skeptical enough about the testing methodology to live and let live. My ears and brain, along with sinuses and whatnot, are not consistent measurement devices. However, If I listen to several hundred records and then make a change, I can often perceive some difference that I consider better or worse. Often in these scenarios there is no convincing testing methodology to prove one way or the other. That's OK. It's much easier for me to assume that the variables for individuals are numerous enough that I simply can't make any blanket statements.

 

Personally I'm not the least bit "lathered up" . Maybe the explanation of what you are hearing is that it's what you want to hear. So if you heard an explanation that was proven scientifically but was one that didn't align with your beliefs you'd disregard it?

If a blind A-B test was done between inexpensive jumper plates and more expensive jumper cables and you could not accurately tell which one is which that wouldn't be a telling explanation?

Bill

 

There are ways of dealing with & controlling these issues.

It is not grounds however for dismissing the method outright.

For the first time in a wire thread, I believe we actually have gotten somewhere and this is what I believe it all essentially boils down to.

If you are predisposed to believe sonic quality lies somewhere and beyond that which is generally known and scientifically accepted, then there can be no argument.

It is akin (note akin - not to imply the same thing) as those who believe in the supernatural and those who do not.

 

Well, science is full of wrong assumptions. God knows medical science has been so far off in the weeds, and still is, that we often live to see radical reassessments of long held positions. Thing with hi-fi is that there's no immediate need for extensive resources to be used in sorting these issues out. Even if you are not predisposed to believe, you may notice some aspect of the sound that bothers you, fixate on those recordings that produce the effect, then find some odd solution to fix the issue that has no solid scientific theory to describe the situation OR that has a variety of possible explanations and you can't sort which one is responsible. In these situations, you don't throw out the fix, you keep and proceed. You might even share your experience with others on the off chance they have the same issue.

 

Or, alternately, what is under discussion is a question of audio theology as much as audio science.

Depends on the origin of your devotion.



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