Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

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  1. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    If anything, it makes Luke that much more of a hero because he already knows how the "old hermit coming out of retirement" story line ends, and yet he does it anyway.
     
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  2. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    People tend to forget that Luke was never the all wise all powerful measured and perfect Jedi. He was never this infaliable beacon of virtue. He was just a normal farm kid thrust into a larger world he had no idea he was a part of or had a legacy to fullfil. Yeah he was heroic and did heroic things, but he made mistakes repeatedly, his impulsive nature being his Achilles heel throughout the original trilogy.

    If anything, just having him back as the all wise obiwan figure who has all the answers and is perfect in every way is further from the character we saw in A NEW HOPE through JEDI. Luke was always a good and decent, but flawed and impulsive person. That's why he resonated with so many of us growing up. He was a normal guy at heart.

    He acted on an impulse like he once did back in Empire, this time with more disastrous consequences. He made an impulsive choice to act...stopped himself and still paid for it and what was worse others paid for it this time.

    Add in the fact as he learned more about the Jedi' sordid past and how they pretty much unwittingly helped give Palpatine the Galaxy on a silver platter and how the a Jedi failed his parents and drove Anakin to the Dark Side...and then that in many ways he had repeated history, i think he can be forgiven for thinking that The Jedi and the Sith and their unending yin and yang struggle is why things were so bad...and that maybe the best thing was to end the cycle and have it all end with him.
     
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  3. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Because the OT are sacred texts, perfect and you don't dare question the characters and motivations. You just accept it.

    However everything released after is automatically complete sh!t, should be nitpicked and questioned to death and if you don't hate the prequels and the sequels with the burning passion of a thousand suns,or you dare point out the same flaws in the OT are present in the prequels and sequels and vice versa, you are not a true Star Wars fan.

    Or something like that. Hard to tell with the pitchfork brigade.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  4. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

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    Do you mean to come off as really arrogant?
     
  5. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Ironically he's actually quoting Luke from TLJ with the whole " amazing..." etc spiel. Which is quite funny when one considers he's quoting a movie he claims he hates so much.
     
  6. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    That's because Yoda faced the emperor and failed. He didn't run away. He was defeated and had to hide tactically. Luke just abandons everything and hides. Seriously, it's like a really bad plot tool to marginalize the character as much as possible, so that they can focus on the new cast...
    That was a little joke to show I'm not dead set against every little thing in TLJ. It's not like I can't see the appeal some people see. However, I do find it a horrible movie overall and Luke's subplot is just against the entire old trilogy's portrayal of his character. Yes, that was the idea, but it was a bad idea.
     
  7. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    You say it better than I did. We are a kindred spirit. I love it.
     
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  8. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Thankfully there are more of us than more of those types of Gatekeeping fans. Everyone has the right to express their opinion though.
     
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  9. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

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    Yeah, because he was impulsive. And Yoda had a point. Too much like his father. Things turned out good, but only because his father ultimately remained impulsive right thru to the end. Double-edged sword and all that.

    It seems more like you're the one who's completely lost the most important sequence of events from RotJ.

    It is interesting that Ben Solo turns on Snoke the same way his grandfather turned on the Emperor, in a similar fit of impulse. Maybe the singular lesson of the Star Wars saga is not to give power to impulsive rageaholics - you never know when you're going to end up on the receiving end of their wrath.
     
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  10. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    Tactic my butt. Yoda was retired...in the middle of a war I might add, unlike Luke. Not following this one at all.
     
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  11. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    Excellent post!

    I think Luke's fear of failure is very much in line with people that get slapped down by making mistakes.

    Ben wasn't saying that he should crawl up into a ball and forget about life because of them. Quite the contrary, he is saying to learn from them. Yoda pretty much does the same thing in the Last Jedi and to let go of things you cannot control (Reminds me of Gravity recently). This is what makes me love the characters so much. The story is what always keeps me coming back.
     
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  12. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    MA
    Wow, every word is wrong?!? Hmm. I must be watching a different movie. Yes, he "could have joined Vader or not even go there in the first place," which is exactly what I was saying-- his impatience and recklessness get the better of him in the third act, and he breaks his training to go off on a rescue mission that he fails at. "By choosing to confront Vader, he saved his friends because Vader kept them alive as a bait for Luke." This is partly true, his friends were used as bait and were now expendable. But the wild card was Lando; he's the one who actually got Leia, Chewie and Threepio to safety aboard the Falcon. Luke played no role in their rescue, unless you call "walking directly into Vader's trap after being warned, losing a hand and needing to be rescued" all part of Luke's rescue plan. This interpretation is supported by dialogue that was deleted from ROTJ:
    I think the line in there about confronting and then going beyond the dark side dovetails nicely with Luke's choices in the Throne Room as well as the flashback scenes from TLJ. He is confronted by the dark side in both-- killing Vader and killing Ben Solo, the quick and easy path-- but instead stays his hand both times. This is the quality that makes Luke the hero we admire-- he consciously chooses the right path even when it's the harder path to follow.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
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  13. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    Thanks for quoting me. My first post somehow got deleted! (I think I hit "delete" instead of "edit.") By quoting me, I didn't have to start all over from scratch!
     
  14. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Seems you need to watch the movie again. Luke didn't fail there.

    Vader didn't care about Solo and Chewbacca and he didn't know Leia was his daughter at that point, so he didn't care about her either. The only reason he didn't kill them was because he needed them alive as a bait for Luke. By confronting Vader in Cloud City, Luke saved their lives because they had a chance to escape while Vader was preoccupied with Luke. Lando's little rebellion wouldn't work if Vader was there.

    Vader's goal wasn't to defeat Luke in a lightsaber duel. He was obviously better than Luke at that point. The goal was to turn Luke to the dark side and Luke resisted that, winning their confrontation and saving his friends. Vader had no idea Luke would use the force to escape through that tunnel when cornered.
     
  15. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    I already addressed Luke's friends being used as bait, so it seems like we're just going in circles now. You have your interpretation, I have mine, and we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    But I will say this-- the theme of learning from failure as expressed in TLJ is essentially the same theme from TESB. Luke failed at the Dark Side cave on Dagobah, and he fails again at Cloud City, which Ben affirms in that deleted dialogue from ROTJ that I quoted. And it's the same lesson that Rey should take away from her confrontation with Snoke and Ben Solo in TLJ.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
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  16. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    Vader kept Leia alive with or without Luke. Solo wasn't even dead meat either, he was simply payment to the Bounty Hunter the same as the deal with Lando (that kept changing of course). In Fett's own words he needed to deliver to Jabba alive.

    Regardless whether Luke landed then or later or never, the capture happened and was finished because Vader was peeved about Han evading him. The master plan to get Luke happened later and Luke so called saving them is a circular argument. Whether Lando was successful or not depended exactly on how it played out. Vader wouldn't have been walking hand in hand with the Princess, and perhaps if he would have, he might have been killed too. Vader is a bad ass, but he can die from laser fire just like any other human. Lando's people were strong in that moment and if Vader was with them, again it depends on how quick the jump was. All the woulda shoulda's is dependent on whether you buy Vader holding hands to do rudimentary work. I don't buy it.

    You remember Han and Leia (I always had my own theory on this one...much like the first movie where the doors were closed...and the bikini....boom chicka bow wow) being tortured? They couldn't have known Luke was going to find them and neither could Vader so I am not following the example at all. Them looking for Luke isn't the same as him arriving.

    I don't think any of us need to watch the movie again, we just disagree on the finer points. I think a great many of us have watched it more than a few times. I prefer to talk about the movie.
     
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  17. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

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    I will leave this here with little comment other than it lets the Saga speak for itself, and it absolutely gave me goosebumps.

     
  18. mpayan

    mpayan A Tad Rolled Off

    Right, including those who think its crap.
     
  19. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

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    Luray, Virginia
    When have I said otherwise?


    There's a difference between saying " I didn't like this movie. Here's why...etc" and " I hated this movie, everything about it is garbage and if you disagree you are an idiot and/or didn't pay attention to it/ you're garbage and not a true star wars fan and I'm not going to stop complaining about it until you agree with me."

    If someone is the former ( which i would say is the majority of those who dislike the movie), then no harm no foul. Agree to disagree.


    If someone is the later...well...they for sure can say that and express that, but don't be surprised when the vast majority of everyone else pro and con to roll their eyes and snicker at and generally not take that other person who has been throwing a 6 month long temper tantrum about a movie seriously.

    That also extends to the people who proclaim the Last Jedi the greatest Star Wars ever and that whomever disagrees is obviously sexist or racist etc.
     
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  20. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    That's where you're wrong. The cave showed him that Vader plans to turn Luke into Vader 2.0. Luke manages to overcome the dark side and save his friends in Cloud City, at the price of his arm instead of his live. He does not fail there and he also learns that Vader still has good in him, the remnants of Anakin. If it wasn't for the encounter in Cloud City, Luke would have died in the throne chamber and the alliance would have been wiped out. Only his faith in his father allowed them to triumph over the emperor. You really don't understand the old trilogy if you think Luke failed and Vader was just a psycho.
    Factually wrong. Vader wanted to kill Leia even back in A New Hope. She didn't mean anything to him until he sensed she's his daughter from Luke's feelings. Solo was a test subject for the freezing process because Vader wanted Luke alive and he needed to be sure the equipment works. He said that the bounty hunter will get monetary compensation if Solo dies because he doesn't care either way.
    [Mod: Impolite reply removed - please keep it friendly]
    The Force allows one to see possible futures. Vader knew that Luke would come to save his friends if he felt they are in pain. That's why he tortured Han without asking questions. He just wanted him to be in pain because Luke would sense that through the Force. That was the bait.
     
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  21. marblesmike

    marblesmike Forum Resident

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    I never interpreted it that way. I always thought it showed Luke that he was part of Vader, aka his son. Of course Luke didn't know that yet at that particular moment.
     
  22. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    You'll want to take that up with Yoda, then, because as he's imploring Luke not to leave Dagobah, he says:

    The failure was in Luke not heeding Yoda's advice and bringing his weapon in with him; the dark side cave met him with a warning about the direction his recklessness might take him. That warning was compounded in ROTJ, when Luke saw himself reflected in Vader's severed robotic hand and recognized that for the danger sign it was.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
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  23. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    We're not talking about the cave. We're talking about Cloud City. Luke failed at the cave, but he didn't succumb to the dark side in Cloud City and managed to escape Vader with his friends.
    This doesn't make any sense. Vader's plan for Luke was to turn him to the dark side and rule the galaxy as father and son, which is what the literally says. The cave showed Luke that he can become the next Vader. The mechanical arm was always a reminder of that possibility for Luke. He was supposed to join Vader by succumbing to the dark side of the Force, but he managed to save his friends and escape Vader, although it was close because he lost his arm, thus becoming a little bit like Vader already.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
  24. genesim

    genesim Forum Resident

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    We just have to agree to disagree on this. I think I understand the old trilogy just fine and it isn't Luke failing or not failing in a grand sum. Luke failed in that moment and until Lando came reluctantly came back for him, it was almost deathly true.

    I think Han as a test subject was a bonus. I wasn't thinking about that. You bring up a good point there.

    I think Vader was hoping for that outcome, but couldn't know. Again, a very good point. Regardless Luke's best bet was not to show up. He could have died and all would have been lost.
     
  25. Takehaniyasubiko

    Takehaniyasubiko Forum Resident

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    Luke failed at defeating Vader in a lightsaber duel, but he didn't fail completely because a) he didn't succumb to the dark side of the Force b) he bought time for his friends to escape c) he escaped Vader who had orders to kill him if he doesn't turn to the dark side. It wasn't a failure in the end and he actually bonded with Vader in a way that allowed him to see that there's a conflict in him, which Luke decided to bet on in RotJ.
    If Luke didn't show up, Vader would have killed his friends. Even Yoda sensed it through the Force. Luke, being so close to them, could feel it strongly and that's why he went to confront Vader unprepared. Yoda's answer to the problem was sacrificing his friends, but Luke couldn't accept it, even if it meant abandoning the Jedi training. That's why Luke from the new Star Wars is just the opposite of the old Luke. People might change, but not in such a way. It's like a different person.
     
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