Steely Dan's Gaucho SACD vs. DVD-Audio

Got a chance to do a critical comparison of these two last night and here are my findings.

First the DVD-Audio has their MCA catalog information on it, lyrics to every song, and a couple of photos of Walter Becker and Donald Fagan on it. That is it for extras. The audio is 24bit/96khz for both the stereo and multichannel layers, and includes a Dolby Digital track. The menus are really bland and don't really add anything to the presentation of the DVD.

For the comparison I am usually a universal player the Denon DVD-2900.

I found that the SACD has a little bit better clarity over the DVD-Audio, the bass sounds a bit better defined as well, where the bass sounds a bit more boomy on the DVD. The midrange sounds also a bit smoother on the SACD, where on the DVD it sounded a little bit more sloppy.

As for the multichannel mix, the same comments apply and add a little bit more clarity and transparency between the front and rear speakers. The SACD again gets the nod. A good comparison would be Dolby Digital vs DTS, where the DVD-A is the Dolby Digital, and the SACD is the DTS.

I must say that both discs sound really, really good, and most people would be happy with either one. The SACD wins out but only by a small margin sound quality wise.

 

Clarification please: Are you talking about the DTS disc, or a DVD-A of Gaucho?
I have the DTS, have never seen it on DVD-A. Patrick

 

The comparison is the DVD-Audio vs. the SACD. The DVD-Audio was just released last Tuesday. I do not have this title on DTS.

 

He was using a metaphor. The sound quality of the SACD would "be like" DTS and the sound quality of the DVD-A would "be like" dolby digital.

 

The SACD is taken from 24/96 PCM, the native format of the DVD-A. You probably have a preference for the coloration added by the noise inherent in the DSD format (just like tubes add distortion that most people find pleasing).

There's also the possibilty that your player is simply better at SACD.

 

It sounds like the same difference between the Sea Change SACD Vs. the DVD-A. The DVD-A of that title was definitely 'boomier' and a bit more muddled in the mids, but if I hadn't had the SACD to begin with, I never would have noticed for they both sound great. I wonder if Universal is purposely 'tweaking' the DVD-A releases for some reason?

 

Goldenboy, I have also done a comparison of Beck Sea Change, and the results are almost identical to my comparison of Gaucho.

In response to Michael's comments, I did not do the comparison to start a format war, it is just my opinion on my equipment, others might prefer the DVD-Audio. It is meant for people who want to buy the DVD-Audio or the SACD and not both. I too have felt that the DVD-Audio of these titles should have better sound quality do to the SACD taken from a PCM source, but the coloration that the SACD does provide is more pleasing to my ears.

 

As Michael said, the Beck and Steely Dan both originated from pcm masters (24/88 and 24/96, respectively). I find it hard to believe that Uni tweaked the Dvd-as. Any differences are probably due to the playback unit and/or the transfer to dsd or dsd itself.

 

Why is it hard to believe? I just don't see how a transfer to DSD alone would account for the boominess of the DVD-A in comparison to the SACD, and my playback unit(s) are different from tlake's. I have a Pioneer 563a and a Sony C555ES. The Beck SACD sounded very similar when played back on both the 563a and C555ES, with the C555ES having the edge, with a fuller and smoother sound, but even the fullness of the 555ES did not add the boominess of the DVD-A. The DVD-A was boomy in muddled in the mids in comparison to the SACD on both the 563a and the C555ES. I have heard other PCM to DSD transfers, and none of them had this effect when compared to the original PCM.

 

I find it amazing that a DSD transfer of a 24/96 PCM source sounds better than the source itself!
-wolf

 

It can't sound more accurate. Any deviation from the original has to be a coloration!

 

Those who find the bass 'boomy'.

Have you checked the levels of all your speakers and sub with the Chesky DVD-A test disc (or other test disc) and an SPL meter?

 

Believe me, my system is very well calibrated. I spent nearly 6 months tweaking and adjusting it. And, yes, I have used the Chesky disc.

Anyway, I never said I thought the bass sounded 'boomy', I said the Sea Change DVD-A sounded 'boomy' and muddy in the mids compared to the SACD.

 

Oh, and I do use an SPL meter.

 

My equipment has been well calibrated as well.

The bass on the DVD-Audio's just do not seem as well defined as on the SACD. This is the third comparison I have done of the Universal SACDs against the DVD-As of the same titles. Beck's Sea Change and Steely's Gaucho are very similar with the SACD edging it out on my system. As for my third comparison of 3 Doors Down Away from the Sun, the SACD simply kills it, it makes the DVD-A sound like a poorly mastered CD.

Maybe Universal is messing up the transfers of these to DVD-Audio somehow?

I would love to hear other opinions, all I know is what I hear.

 

I A-B'd my Sea Change DVD-A vs. my SACD (Toshiba SD-5700 & Sony 777) & I wound up trading in the SACD for Sam Cooke at The Copa. They sounded almost identical (not muddy at all), & the DVD-A has more value, with the great videos & crazy on-screen displays, for the SAME price.

 

Actually I believe this title was mastered to 2" analog tape and then seperate PCM and DSD masters were made from that. Fagen's Kamakiriad was transferred the same way, although it's only come out on DVD-A being a Warner title.

Dave.

 

I don't think the DVD-A can be considered "the source itself" any more than an LP an be considered the source if talking about an analog master. Who knows how many compromises are made from the master tape to the consumer media (in any format).

 

That's great, buy what you want, and feel that you get the most value for your money.

If you feel that you get a better value with the lyrics and on screen display for the Gaucho DVD-Audio by all means buy it, on the other hand if you feel you get more with the hybrid aspect of the SACD then buy that.

I bought the Beck Sea Change DVD-Audio for the videos as well, but I don't want to part with the sound quality of the SACD.

Look both the SACD and DVD-Audio of Gaucho and Sea Change sound incredible, I personally feel that the SACD has slightly better sound quality. If you don't believe me, buy what you want.

 

I believe you are correct. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that Sea Change was actually recorded on analogue equipment in 'live' takes, with all of the musicians in the same room and mixed to 2". I cannot comment on the source for either Hi-Res release. For all I know, they could have mastered it to 88.2/24 PCM for both Hi-Res releases. The only thing is, with the differences in tonality, it sounds more like they were both done individually for their respective formats.

 

That doesn't explain the claimed differences between the surround version(s), which was definitely was not produced in this manner.

 

I have the same make/model of Denon and in my opinion the DVD-Audio version sounds better. I noticed this immediately, then later played the SACD to be sure. Small difference though, like 20% in favor of DVD-Audio. The SACD just sounds a bit more dead, and harsh, and loud, and the DVD-Audio more lifelike and clear and dreamy sounding. I'd like to sell the SACD and especially the dts version I have, with the misprinted backwards imaged cover.

I think the Denon DVD-2900 sounds better with DVD-Audio, so anytime something comes out in both formats, I'll be getting the DVD-Audio version. And I like the video extras. The catalog on this disk is pretty nice, although it plays at 16bit 44.1.

 

That´s a lot!!! In an "audiophile" rate 20% in an improve in the sound IMO is a huge difference!

 

Two big problems with this statement:

1. The relatively little noise introduced by DSD is no different from noise introduced by a hirez PCM format. Each format has pluses and minuses. What's happening here may be due to different playback equipment and/or mastering.

2. Tubes are no less or more accurate than transistors. There are good examples these days of amps of both type that are very accurate. This is perpetual audio myth not based on modern implementations.

Also, keep in mind that there are several good examples of SACDs that sound good but were mastered from a PCM master. There are also several examples of CDs issued in PCM where there were analog tapes present (most of the Chesky SACDs, for instance) and DSD from the tapes were quite delicious sonically. Unless an engineer specifically states that they used a PCM master or there was no analog tape present, I consider further investigation of the source is necessary - ie. I don't assume a PCM source.

 

The Denon's do not offer good Super Audio playback - a better test is the Musical Fidelity or flagship Sonys. The test here was inherently biased toward DVDA.