Stereo Isolation

I would imagine that isolation would work with mono, just as it does with stereo rigs.

 

¨Isolation¨ worked well for Joy Division

 

That just reminded me to place my unused Auralex Mopad under my center channel speaker. They were under my two channel speakers which now have Svelte shelves.

 

I think this is an easy area to seek out improvements and is well worth trying. I use Herbie's products under most of my stuff. They made a nice improvement when used under my DAC and speakers. I thought they would also help under my pre-amp and amp but I didn't notice any difference when used under these components.

 

wow your stuff must get quite hot... i've used them for about 3 years, moved everything around the other day and none of them were sticky or deformed...you have to get the right ones based on weight...

 

I find they leave a residue regardless of weight or heat. I still have shelves that show marks from using them many years ago. Of course I bought them probably 20 years ago, so the formulation may have changed since then.

John K.

 

I have some improvised ones made of silicon rubber. I have to take the cd player to a tech to address the tray not opening when hot and they have kind of SUPERGLUED to the players rubber feet on one side and to the shelf on the other. Any ideas on how to GENTLY removing them without damaging anything ?

 

Yes, try a few different things, you may like the improvements. You could even start with free stuff around the house like phone books, styrofoam, etc. and see what you think. I've noticed improvements with my solid state amp, but not as large as those on my digital sources.

 

I use a lot of Herbies stuff & have had the biggest gains from speakers, source components, & glass rack shelves.

 

This is not simply your belief, it is absolute fact. Our brains are not built to retain auditory memory for more than a few seconds, much less 20 minutes. On top of that, if you are doing the switching yourself (as many do with cables) that reduces our auditory memory even further as our brains are wired to discard unnecessary sensory memories when faced with new tasks -- our brains do not multitask anywhere near as well as we like to think they do.

 

The makers of Vibrapods suggest putting the deformed ones in the oven at around 300-325 for a few minutes. They revert to their normal shape. I've tried it and it works.
Even better if you sprinkle them with chocolate chips. Kinda chewy though...

 

One thing I can't ever argue with is somebody who says, "I'm not 100% certain it really works, but I am positive that I feel better listening this way." And in truth, why else do we listen to music except to feel better? If that works for you, then it works.

In other words: if it feels good... do it.

 

A forum member asks for advice regarding animal training. A number of forum members with some experience in mouse training, mostly computer related, jump in and offer their expert advice. Then a heavyweight lion tamer joins in. Naturally, his experience is somewhat different. So, how is this ambiguity resolved? In a word - quickly. Mouse trainers immediately belittle lion tamer and his experience. Consequently, because there are so many of them, their (Mickey Mouse) experience prevails. Game over.

 

Although I disagree with it, I certainly understand your opinion on auditory memory. However, I can't understand applying this logic to isolation. Putting components (especially speakers) on different footers, stands, racks, etc. should impact the sound. I say this respectfully but I didn't think isolation would also be a subject where people question that sound quality can be improved (or made worse). No flame or criticism intended - just expressing my opinion.

 

I know you were commenting to BrewDrinkRepeat, but again, I think the problem always falls back to the Uncertainty of Auditory Memory Effect (which I hereby christen "U.A.M.E."). If you put an amplifier on a $500 wooden stand with pointed feet, vs. a $20 Ikea shelf unit, can you really trust yourself to remember precisely how it sounded before the stands were swapped out? To me, there's so many psychological factors -- how much sleep you had, how much stress you're under, what time of day (or night) it is, when you had your last meal, the room temperature, all that stuff -- it's impossible to really make this a thoroughly objective test. If you walk out of the room, drive five miles, wait an hour, then come back, you're never, ever going to be able to remember how everything sounded -- too much outside stimuli.

I have participated in the double-blind tests Dr. Floyd Toole did back in the day at JBL in Northridge, and let me tell you, when you're in a dark room sitting alone in a chair, and they play you "speaker A" and "speaker B" through a thin mesh screen, and you have to tell the difference... it's very hard. I saw people pick $300 speakers over $3000 speakers, and I encountered people who couldn't reliably hear any difference 9 out of 10 times. And the difference between different speakers is massive, far more than just a simple support shelf.

I'm not saying the differences aren't there... only that they're very, very subtle, to the point where I don't think most people can hear them under any circumstances. If it's less than a 1% difference, it's to the point where it won't really have an audible effect. I don't deny that a $500 shelf with pointed metal feet is going to look a lot cooler, and I've owned quite a few myself over the years. But I don't think it made even a whit of difference.

 

I agree that there are many psychological factors that impact how our systems sound. My wife thinks I am crazy but for me lighting is a big deal. Too much light in the room has a big impact on how I perceive the music so I like having the lights low. If I get a really good workout, I am more relaxed and the music sounds better.

Where I have a difference of opinion is that some changes are repeatable. When I put a decent isolation product (Herbies) under my DAC and speakers, I heard detail in songs that I had never heard before. After reading an article on the sonic benefits of bamboo, I changed all my footers and shelves to bamboo. It changed the sound but not for the better. After a week, I switched back to my previous setup. This to me was a concrete and repeatable exercise.

There is no pride of ownership in trying a tweak – I used the same isolation products with my preamp and amp and felt like I got no improvement. Double-blind testing sounds like it would be an interesting experience. I would like to try it sometime.

 

I would think that most quality gear would be well enough designed not to need additional isolation for minor vibrations.

 

I really appreciate the ideas offered here at Steve's & especially the level of civility regarding tweaks, etc..

I don't doubt anothers experience, be it A/B, placebos, physiological influences / limitations, whatever, but my experience is that people's individual sensory awareness & memory exists on an unusual continuum. My understanding is that Neuro Science is just learning that each cell in our body stores memory to one degree or another.

I seem to want to relate the "I can" - "okay, yah sure, but you really can't" conversation above to a playful little allegory as follows:
A group of ancestors are sitting around a campfire on the savanah, its pitch black, & occasionally a lion or two can be heard roaring in their proximity. Everyone is used to the roars though, enjoying their evening beverage & confident their large fire will keep lions away. A visiting ancestor tells of a lion that braved a camp fire & drug off an unlucky fellow a fortnight ago before anyone could grab a spear, says he will always remember the roar of that particular lion, says he'll just run like crazy if he ever hears it again. His kinsmen are eager for him to describe what made that roar sound different to which their visitor of course obliges. A bit later a typical sounding roar is heard nearby but the visiting kinsman shouts a warning & runs off into the black night away from the roar. What would his kinsmen do?

 

I would have thought that too.

I have good TEAC players (P/70 and D/70) which have pretty sophisticated feet. They sit on Finite Elemente Pagode racks - carefully designed and well thought of racks. Yet...

Yet underneath the CD Transport (P/70) I placed Symposium Rollerblocks - ball bearing type devices. They improved the sound a small bit. Then I placed a Symposium Svelte Shelf underneath, along with the Rollerblocks. More improvement.

What improvement? I was listening for an improvement in very specific percussion on particular tracks and I got a tiny amount of that. After I got fed up trying to listen for this I decided I'd just relax and listen to some of my favourite music. At first, it just seemed louder then usual - it wasn't. Then I realised that the notes were a bit clearer, more defined. There seemed to be more information in the music generally. Basically it seems the noise floor had dropped. That is indeed what you would expect if isolation devices did their work. The thing is I wasn't listening for this, it was just there. For a week now I've been playing my favourite music and each track offers new pleasures. Finally if I remove the shelf and blocks, it's not the same.

In other words, it is not necessarily true that 'quality gear would be well enough designed not to need additional isolation for minor vibrations', and these devices are worth trying out. This sort of improvement is not obtainable by room treatment, positioning or EQ. It may be possible by power conditioning and the like.

If you can't afford, or they are not worth the cost to you, you could devise your own solutions. Here's one set of ideas:

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

I'm a convert to this sort of thing and excited by it's possibilities.

 

I can see doing it for turntables, but not for much other than that. I have never heard anything that I thought would have had vibration come through a amp or receiver. However, I am old and half deaf so maybe I am the only one it wouldn't have an impact on.

 

I tried this out but haven't had a ton of time to really experiment. Here are my quick impressions. I had a fellow audiophile friend over when I did this. I put the Vibrapods under the receiver (solid state). We heard no discernible difference.

We tried the bookshelf speakers and we heard a very subtle, just slightly noticeable increase in bass performance. (the bookshelf Wharfedales are usually bass shy) Overall, it definitely increased the performance/sound of the speakers but it was not night and day between those pods and the towels I already had. I don't think you could tell unless you were actively sitting there A/Bing them and listening pretty hard.

Overall, for me, I'm not really sure the $25 bucks for something like this would be justified.

I did try some furniture pads that acted the same way/same general design of the Vibrapods. They acted (to my ears) not as well as the Vibrapods (maybe half the slight performance upgrade) and they're 10 bucks cheaper. So if I was going to do this, I guess I may as well spend the extra $10 bucks and get some better performance, subtle as it is.

Overall, some difference, not drastic by any means.

 

Good idea having an extra set of ears for the experiment.

 

I don't know $25 for audible improvement sounds pretty good to me!!!

 

If I had to gauge it, it was maybe a 25% performance increase, maybe a little less. It was real subtle. It definitely worked though, as far as the thread topic is concerned. I'm very glad I tried it and I was just informed I could keep them, so *boom*. Win-win situation in either way. I'm sure if I had some tube equipment or a turntable it would be even more drastic.

 

I signed up to a subscription with Hi Fi Choice magazine. The freebie offer was a set of Atacama Blue Eagle brass isolation cones. Four of them. £140 at full price. Not set them onto anything yet, but will do.

http://www.atacama-audio.co.uk/p/atacama-blue-eagle-solid-brass-isolation-cones-25mm-pack-of-4