Steve's Analogue Productions Blue Note SACD/CD Sound Quality Discussion Thread

I think Joe said after Rudy added the stereo machine there were only a few years when he printed to mono and stereo tapes at the same time. After that he derived the mono version from folding in the stereo tape. Steve posted pictures of tape boxes where they said Mono=Stereo 50/50 (or something like that).

 

Thanks Jamie. September 1957 was early for recording albums in stereo and I'm glad this record was one of them. For the time, it's pretty much perfect. I've never heard the mono mix but I'm guessing a similar amount of prep and care went into getting a good balance.

 

I hope Steve or Joe will step in here and give you a more detailed answer. Never having been exposed to this genre before I'm still learning about this stuff myself. Fascinating era in music though.

 

I've only had the chance to listen to Lee-way thus far but I ask the rest of you, does it sound like the dynamics are a bit squashed? I'm listening to Blakey on the drums and during his solo's it sounds to my ears as though he isn't being allowed to cut lose as fully as I hear on the 45 LPs (like "A Night In Tunisia"). I realize that the level is lower so I turned up the volume to compensate (kind of like I have to do with Chesky discs) but that didn't solve the problem. Anyone else hear what I am?

 

I think what you are hearing is the compression applied during recording. This is the case with many Art Blakey recordings for Blue Note. The dynamics of the drums on the "A Night In Tunisia" 45rpm release sound restricted as well.

 

Really? Wow. Restricted is hardly the word I'd use to describe Blakey's drums on "A Night In Tunisia." It's records like that that one that show why Blakey was such a powerful drummer. I don't hear that on the Lee-way SACD, and now that I've listened to it, "Blue Train" as well. Also, I've never read anywhere that Rudy Van Gelder or Alfred Lion allowed for the use of compression of any kind in Blue Note recordings. If you can show where they did I'll gladly offer my appoligies and stand corrected.

 

Just got the first 4 of these yesterday. Very, very pleased. It is remarkable to compare differences in some of these with other versions.

Take LEEWAY for example, one of my favorites by Morgan. I have the old McMaster Connoisseur CD, the Toshiba "TOJC-" disc, Steve and Kevin's 45 rpm vinyl version and now the SACD.

Both of Steve and Kevin's versions slaughter the competition.

I do think of those 2, the 45 rpm vinyl reigns supreme, but with vinyl playback done using a cartridge loading and other settings all optimized for a flat response (e.g. not to add any midrange presence), they are very, very close.

If I could address the comment made above about supposedly there being less dynamic range on the SACD of LEEWAY - respectfully I must say I don't hear it. My suspicion is that your vinyl rig is adding some coloration that makes the vinyl sound more dynamic - not that the SACD is "missing" anything.

Pretty much ALL vinyl playback is going to introduce some coloration, I would wager. I speak from experience because in doing the A/B comparisons of the vinyl and SACD version of LEEWAY last night, I realized that I probably have been loading my cartridge a little too much, which was creating a slight upper midrange peak that can add a little "presence" but is, I am now hearing, a definite departure from neutral tonality. Bringing down the loading a bit, the sound matches the SACD almost perfectly...it is a little less dynamic than what it sounded like at the higher loading, but over time more pleasing and tonally "right" and I suspect that's just what the original tapes sound like - as on the SACD.

Interestingly using equations the lower loading should give a resonance peak that is nearly out of the audible range (about 19.5 kHz) while the slightly higher loading I was using before should yield a resonance peak at about 16 kHz - so the theory matches up with what my listening comparisons are saying.

Anyway sorry to digress - but my point is I don't think it's the SACD that is less dynamic, I think it's vinyl playback that can tend to add some presence due to loadings and other factors that depart from neutrality.

 

Maybe you should ask Steve for details:

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showpost.php?p=670078&postcount=21

What I'm hearing on many Art Blakey recordings is a drum sound whose dynamics had to be compressed in order to be compatible with the playback technology back then.

 

Just to nitpick, for the record: Larry Walsh mastered the Connoisseur CD. He did several of the earliest Connoisseur CD reissues.

And thanks for your comments about the new Leeway. One of my favorites.

 

When are Idle Moments, Midnight Blue and Moanin due out?

 

You can hear quite a bit of compression on these recordings. You can really hear it on saxophones and trombones, etc...

 

I am new to this era of music, but these discs have been heaven to listen to. I must admit that I have a VERY CHEAP mid-fi stereo, Marantz SACD player and a Marantz receiver, so I do not notice the compression. To my untrained ears I hear an open, airy sounding recording when I listen to these SACD's. Leeway is new to me, I love it.

 

I´ve listened to "Whistle stop" and "Leeway" so far, and both sound fantastic.

Concerning the artwork, I find it irritating that the back cover and booklet contain lots of legal information (licensing, anti-piracy warning) but don't mention the session recording date, and don't list the track timings.

 

I guess I stand corrected...could have sworn this was McMaster, I do know Walsh did some of the earlier Blue Note CDs but I didn't think he did this one.

 

I've been listening to "Blue Train" for the better part of a week now, and I have to say that I'm in Coltrane Heaven! (By the way, I live only a few miles from the Church of John Coltrane here in San Francisco.) The sonics are the best I've heard in any digital format. The only other version that improves on it is Steve and Kevin's 45 LP!

 

Hope I didn't sound too finicky. I only mention it because I just realized it the other day when I'd pulled out the old Connoisseur of Freddie Hubbard's Ready for Freddie and found that it was done by Larry Walsh. So I poked around and found out he'd done Leeway as well. I guess I had somehow got used to the thought that McMaster had done all of these.

 

Thanks for the feedback folks. I'm going to try a couple out and then consider subscribing.

 

For me, subscription is the way to go because these are obviously going to be great sounding discs, whether I am familiar with the title or not. And of course you save on shipping which is a plus.

 

As I promised, I did a little comparrison of BLUE TRAIN. I compared the new Acoustic Sounds SACD against the Classic Records HDAD, 24/192 layer against the MFSL gold CD. I also played the Blue Note Ultimate Blue Train to give me perspective. I used a Marantz universal player and a Radio Shack digital sound pressure meter to be sure that I was not just comparing volume differences. I did this little test kind of early in the morning, so I did my listening with the peak volume at about 74 db/SPL at my sitting location.

First of all, I played approx. the first 4 minutes of the first track off of the redbook Ultimate Blue Train twice. As I said, I did this to gain perspective. I then listened to the same section twice from the AS SACD, then twice from the HDAD and then twice from the MFSL gold CD and then twice more from the AS SACD and then twice more from the Ultimate Blue Train. During these listens, I paid special attention to the cymbals and the percussion, as well as the bass. I focused my attention on this so that I would have a point of reference. This was my methodology.

My results. I really like the HDAD of Blue Train, it has a real lively feel, a nice top end and a real nice middle section. My only complaint was that there was too much "shimmer" on the cymbals.

The MFSL gold CD sounded real nice, a real nice deep bass sound and a real organic sounding middle frequency section. My complaint here was that cymbals were not pronounced, you could not tell that they were actual cymbals. The soundof the cymbals was like a generic hissing, not like a cymbal in true life. Other than that, a nice sounding disc all around.

On the AS SACD I paid attention to the bass. It was not as pronounced as the MFSL gold CD. But the cymbals, that is what got me. The cymbals on the AS SACD sounded natural, like cymbals in true life. They were not a generic hiss but pronounced, but without the unnatural shimmer that was on the HDAD. The mid section sounded nice as well, real organic and smooth.

My final impression was that all of these discs offer up something of a sonic treat in theri own way, but for my tastes the AS SACD had a more natural feel. I did not sense any more compression from one disc to another, except maybe on my reference disc, the Ultimat Blue Train. The new AS SACD does play much lower than the redbook discs that I compared it to, about 10 decibles lower on my pre/pro, but only about 4 decibles lower than the HDAD. Of course this difference is easily compensated for by using the volume control, which I did to ensure that I listened at the same volume.

As a note, any differences that I heard might just be the limitations of comparing different type of media on one universal player, so bear in mind that your milage might vary. These were simply my findings of a very pleasent way to kill an hour or so of a very nice morning.

 

Thank you for your detailed assessment! Now how about the AS redbook layer....

 

Yeah, I want to do that. I will try that another day.

 

I've got the HDAD and I totally agree with what you are hearing. Everything everything sounds good except those cymbals, they have way too much shimmer. Other than that I love the lively sounding feel. Does the AS SACD have that "Lively Sounding" feel is well?

 

Not to nit-pick but mentions of "AS" in this thread are being used when it should be "AP." Of course, "AS" would refer to Acoustic Sounds who sold us the discs. Analogue Productions is the label on which they appear.

 

Duh, of course you are right.

 

Let me try to say this in a way that makes sense. I feel that the HDAD of Blue Train is more lively than the AP SACD version of Blue Train. I do not mean to say that the AP SACD is dark or heavey, just a little vailed. I attribute this to the mastering process. I think that Kevin and Steve used a tube based counsel to master this and I think that Bernie Grundman used a transistor based counsel to master the HDAD. I prefer the new AP SACD version, but they are both wonderful in their own ways. I do not know if this is accurate, but this is the feeling that I get when I listen to these two different versions of Blue Train.