Subwoofer gurus, can you spare a minute?

I did already and they suggested the double-banana plug method. I'm not sure if it works though. Wish there was a way I could test it before I buy the sub. Hoping to hear if others have tried it.

 

You should do this no matter what sub you get. Listening to my living room system with my Definitive Technology ProSub 100 in the corner right now - you are going to LOVE it. You will be blown away by the impact. Be patient and tune it carefully. Don't sweat the sub cable just a decent long RCA is all you need.

 

I start out with the polarity inverted when the sub is remote from the main speakers, which is where it wants to be. I then adjust the phase angle control until their is neither valley or peak in the response.
It is easy to do this once you have a sampling of music with a mix of bass and sub-bass.
In addition I always put the volume level of the sub higher than usual while tuning. When it's louder you can hear the peaks / valleys easier as well as if the response through the bass region is smooth. Once tuned, you need only adjust the level to "taste". Adjusting the level is benign to the critical adjustments.
Another nice practice is to write down the positions of each dial in a log book. As the sub breaks in it does become louder, more dynamic and extended and you can fine tune without losing your settings reference.
It takes some time and after a year or so I rarely touch any of the controls.

 

I wonder if your placement option is limited due to the sub having to be in a corner. REL subs can be dialed in to suite location and REL's preferred option for placement is in a corner (interview with Richard Edmund Lord), I have mine in a corner and absolutely no problem.

 

So just to be clear, using half of a 30’ dual RCA connector that costs $8 on eBay will do the job every bit as well as the 30’ Mogami 2524 single RCA connector that costs six times more? Or is there maybe a happy median somewhere in between that would be better?

 

I'm using sub cables from Blue Jeans cable. The LC-1 cables are well built, shielded and the RCA connectors are quite substantial. Blue Jeans is an excellent company with great customer service. You can buy something less expensive but risk the chance of noise issues and substandard build quality.

Can't see spending say $800 on a sub and using a $10 cable. Years ago I used buy Monster cables as a friend worked at Tweeter and got quite a discount on the inflated prices. One by one the Monster cables failed as the RCA connectors and soldering was absolute junk. I threw out every Monster cable whether it was defective or not.

Subwoofer Cables from Blue Jeans Cable

 

Got it, Bill. Thanks for the clarification.

BJC LC-1. Done and done.

 

Yup - the Blue Jeans cable you bought is going to be perfect. You could even go cheaper than that, but that's a darn good one.

 

I did a shoot out of Blue Jeans cable to a cheap cable that came with a component. You can go cheap and get the same performance. ESPECIALLY with a blatting subwoofer.

 

I'm sure you can get the same performance but I'd rather be on the safe side. I've seen cheap cables do serious damage to components due to wiring shorting out on defective RCAs. I've also seen cheap cables cause all types of noise that's not enjoyable trying to find. I consider my subs to be just as an important component in my system as everything else. So they'll get the luxury of decent cables .

 

Re: Cheap cables: I read a lot of great things about Monoprice cables, so I gave them a try. They may be cheap in the financial sense, but man do they appear to be well-built! They're my go-to now for any cables needs; no problems w/ anything over the 10 or so years I've been using them.

 

Jim,

I'm glad you brought up Monoprice as they do make very good cables for the cost. I have a few and have never had any issues with them.

 

Great discussion which leads me to a few questions as I am considering a sub for my LS50's. Music is the primary consideration with HT being somewhat of an afterthought. The ability to shake the room is not necessary or desirable as I live in an apartment. System is in the main room which is medium size with 10' ceilings.

Rythmik seems like a better deal than JL Audio as larger drivers come at the same or lower price points.

Does anyone know anything about the Rythmik L12 other than what is obvious from the mfg site and the somewhat damning "entry level" designation?
Rythmik makes a sub with a single rca input, the F12-300. Does anyone know what limitations are associated with just amplifying a single channel of bass?

 

Colorations affect the sub if you connect it with high level inputs? Use only as a last resort? Curious and absolutely not correct.

Why does REL recommend to use high level inputs? Answer- because the amplifier output sounds different than the preamp output. They are at different places along the signal chain within the amplifier. The amplifier also responds differently to load and demand than the preamp does. REL believes that sending the subwoofer the same signal that the main speakers receive (from the amplifier) results in better integration with the main speakers and a better sounding system.
Having tried preamp signal input and speaker signal input and extensively compared the sound of each, there is absolutely no question that using speaker connections on a subwoofer sounds better and actually seamless when dialed in correctly. I was never able to achieve the same integration using the preamp signal on subs that had both inputs or with subs that only had preamp inputs. They tended to sound separate from the main speakers and called attention to themselves in an unwanted way.
If one is worried that connecting an additional set of cables in parallel with the main speakers causes some hind of issue for the amplifier- fear not. The subwoofer speaker connection presents a very high impedance to the amplifier- on the order of 150,000 Ohms (compared to the 8 ohms your main speakers use). What that means is that the subwoofer siphons off a tiny fraction of the amplified signal to drive it.
High level inputs allow a sub to integrate better and I would never have a sub for 2-channel listening that did not have that capability.

 

Great post! I looked at REL's site and below is a link discussing which input is best for their subs. I'm using the LFE inputs on my Rythmik F12SEs as their use is mostly for multichannel music and movies.

Determine whether to use High Level, Low Level, and LFE/.1

 

The Hsu Research ULS-15 does have a phase switch along with numerous other room control adjustments (variable crossover points, etc.). In my opinion, Hsu Research subs are phenomenal bargains that integrate well with difficult systems. This is based on first hand experience. I have one of their 15" depth plunging marvels positioned between two unforgiving Maggie's (3.7i). The Hsu Research sub fit in seamlessly. Two subs were never even contemplated. Of course everyone's mileage varies, but that's my two cents.


Cat

 

Maybe I missed it. All I see is a polarity switch 0/180 labeled as phase but i do not see an adjustable phase knob.

Polarity and phase adjustments are not the same things.

 

What kind of info are you looking for? I have a Rythmik LV12R, essentially the ported version of the L12.

 

Reviews, especially comparisons to other subwoofers. There are a lot of testimonials on Rythmik's site for the lower priced units. It looks like a great deal, $539 and has the servo technology. It's also smaller than the F12 which helps.

 

Well, there's no argument about the servo technology and the nice size and price of the L12, however, my Rythmik is not my favorite sub. In addition to the LV12R I use upstairs, I have an Outlaw LFM-1 EX sub in another system which, frankly, I prefer, even though it's considerably bigger and heavier than the Rythmik. Before purchasing the LV12R, I used the Outlaw with the upstairs system, so I do have a good basis for comparison. Not that I dislike or wouldn't recommend the Rythmik because I DO think it's a good product and a good value, but in retrospect, I probably should have coughed up some more money and gone with something with a bit more impact and authority, like one of the better SVS, Hsu Research or newer Outlaw models. The 300-watt amp in the Rythmik is a bit wimpy, even for my relatively small listening space. I like a more visceral sub that can "punch you in the chest" when appropriate, without ever sounding boomy or distorted.

 

I should add that I use my system with the Rythmik about 60-70% for music and the other 30-40% for TV/HT. The Rythmik integrates very nicely for all kinds of music playback but sometimes falls short (relative to my Outlaw) with demanding movie and TV LFE tracks.

 

You raise a good point Kyle and if we were discussing full range speakers fine tuning in that area might make more of a difference perception-wise. I would proffer that while phase and polarity aren't the same thing in an absolute sense, the terms are somewhat interchangeable when discussing very low frequencies where a subwoofer's job is to blend seamlessly with it's full ...or near full... range counterpart. This is from the Mk 1 Hsu ULS-15 owner's manual (the model in my system):

Setting Phase Control

Depending on the absolute phase of your main speakers and amplifier, and the distances of the subwoofer and main speakers from the listening position, the bass in the crossover region may be smoother if you reverse the phase of the subwoofer. The phase switch position that give a fuller bass in the crossover range is the correct one.

If your controller allows you to set the distance of the subwoofer and main speakers, set these correctly first. This will also time align the subwoofer to give you the most seamless and tight bass.

There is also a large/small room trim control on this model which can also have an impact on absolute phase perception, but since that control may or may not be part of the Mk 2 version, I've omitted that language from the owner's manual. The point of this discussion should be how much phase control is required for a subwoofer? If absolute polarity is the more critical issue, then addressing that should be the primary concern. Just sayin'.


Cat

 

Thanks for your insights. I am mainly concerned about music. The down firing outlaws would probably draw too many complaints in an apartment as would chest thumping SPL's.

 

I had the same Outlaw sub before replacing it with the first Rythmik F12SE. The LFM-1 EX has more output over the F12SE but my interest was more on music than movies. Now with two F12SEs I'd say the overall output is as good if not better than the LFM-1 EX.

 

I saw in a previous post that you had the Outlaw LFM-1 Plus, little brother of the LFM-1 EX. A SINGLE Rythmik F12SE is more than double the price of the old LFM-1 Plus, so I would expect TWO of them working together to outperform a single Outlaw in almost every way.