Technics SL-1210M5G: lead-in groove skipping when using cue lever

I like my 1210 M5G. It has this no-nonsense honest feeling you get from using well engineered machines, but I'm not in love with it. Actually I'm not in love with the concept of LP records and turntables. I used them since I was a kid so for me it's just a practical way to listen to music that is either unavailable or sounds worse on other media, nothing more and nothing less.

That's why I think that monkboughtlunch is lucky because even if the worse happen and in the unlikely event he finds that the whole cuing mechanism or tonearm is a write off, the repair or replacement is easy or ridiculously cheap. Which is something of a rarity when considering this market.

 

I really wish you could hear mine - I think it would change your opinion.

 

Why do you believe they are not a match?

 

What type of arm does the AT150MLX need? Are you saying there is a compliance mismatch with the Technics?

 

What carts would you recommend for the Technics in the same price range as the AT150MLX?

 

Thanks Steve. How many grams is considered medium mass for a tonearm? Here are the specs of the Technics and AT150MLX for reference. The Technics owner's manual suggests the 8.3g of the AT150MLX falls in their "applicable cartridge weight range."

Technics SL-1210M5G tonearm section

• Effective mass 12 g (without cartridge)
• Headshell weight 7.5 g
• Stylus pressure adjustment range 0 – 4 g
• Applicable cartridge weight range 3.5 – 13 g

Audio Technica AT150MLX

• Weight: 8.3 g
  
• Tracking Force Range 0.75-1.75 g
• Dynamic Compliance (x 10-6 cm/dyne, 100 Hz): 10.0
  
• Stylus Shape MicroLine™
• Cantilever Gold-plated boron
• Recommended Load Capacitance: 100 – 200 pF

 

I checked the tracking force with a digital scale and it was 1.4g.

I should also mention, it doesn't skip on the lead in groove (with cue lever lowering) on every record. It seems some records are more prone to this than others. But it does it frequently enough to suggest there is an issue. The contact portion of the arm and lever are clean.

 

Did some Googling about this perplexing issue as I believe my VTA, VTF and anti-skate are dialed in according to Technics recommendations.

Here are some observations posted a couple of years ago. Some claim the issue is due to the bulge on older records for stacking. Thoughts on this theory?

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mcjones123 5 points 2 years ago

It doesn't look like a setup issue to me. Some records have a bit of a bulge on the outer edge, this might be the case with this record as well? Sometimes the bottom of the cartridge hits this bulge and causes what's seen in your videos, or the surface the needle is lowered on is not level and makes the arm slide inwards. A slight warp of the record can make matters worse. Make sure you drop the needle right before the first song starts and not too far on the outer edge of the record.

Source: Do some records just have bad lead-in grooves? • r/vinyl

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MrRom92Crosley 2 points 2 years ago

A lot of LPs are formed with a lip - this is a remnant from the days when LPs were commonly stacked and dropped on top of eachother. Anyhow, if you're dropping the stylus on this lip, even if everything is setup well and you have excellent gear, your stylus will likely slide down too fast to catch the lead in. Generally you should try to drop the stylus closer to the end of the leadin rather than closer to the edge of the record, so as to avoid that lip.

That said, having your antiskate set too high will also cause that, and your antiskate is set too high. It should be equal to or lower than your VTF.

Source: Issues with my stylus "skipping ahead" when I'm trying to begin playing a record. • r/vinyl

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There's also a big thread started a couple weeks ago here that went into most of these scenarios too ... Stylus skipping across lead-in grooves

 

Found this observation about the AT150MLX in a Technics 1210 installation. The poster claims the combo delivers at 9.62Hz resonant peak, with 10Hz being ideal.

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johnnyb53
3,380 posts
12-24-2011 3:23am
12-23-11: Audiofeil

"The AT-150MLX is not a relatively high compliance cartridge."

You are correct, sir. The AT150MLX has a dynamic compliance rating of (x 10-6 cm/dyne, 100 Hz): 10.0. The Ortofon 2M series is about a 20, the Grados a 25 and the Shure M97xE a 30.

The AT150MLX makes for a 10.89 Hz resonance on a 12.5g arm, which is close to ideal; on the 14g arm the resonance drops to 10.53 Hz which is theoretically better, but probably insignificant. I'm using a Technics SL1210 arm with an AT150MLX mounted on a 14g (or thereabouts) headshell making for a total effective mass of about 18.5g (plus the 8.3g cartridge) and the resonant peak is also a near-ideal 9.62 Hz. So as you can see, with 10 Hz being the ideal resonant peak, the AT150MLX comes very close to that with a tonearm whose effective mass ranges from 12 to 19 g.

Source: suitable tonearm for audio technica AT-150mlx | Audiogon Discussion Forum

 

Very interesting. Thanks!

 

I plugged in the values of the 1210 arm and the AT150MLX in the Resonance Frequency calculator. Does anyone see any red flags with this pairing? This calculator includes the cart with the tonearm and headshell for the "Total Mass" metric. It appears this pairing is OK?

 

I've been using @action pact 's modded SL1200MKII w/AT150MLX for several years now. Never had a single problem with any record that wasn't the record's fault. I'm no expert or scientist but this is a pretty awesome sounding combo to me. Heck not only is IGD completely eliminated but as documented by others the inner grooves at times sound better than the outer grooves!

 

Agreed - I've seen this comment over and over through the years. People have recommended the 150MLX to me over and over. I wish I bought the stylus back when it was around 100.00 or 150 - now it is double that - I should probably bite the bullet. I do have a AT440mla - and have had no issues with it at all - I use the aux weight from what I recall. My Precept cart (AT) also works well - but needs the aux weight or heavier headshell (Sumiko)

Lots of threads regarding the AT150mlx/sl1200 - people do mention the compliance - I've read one person found the damper to help quite a bit. I'm a big fan of the liquid damper - helps with tracking issues.

Try to capture a video so that we can see/understand what is going on - capture the hand queue that works fine - and the lever queue. Also - I assume the table is perfectly level? Seems it would bounce if it came down too fast - or if it was coming down at an angle while dragging on the queue mech - that could cause it to bounce- pull out of a groove.

 

You'll find many testimonials to this combo in this now legendary thread;

Audio-Technica AT150MLX review

 

"It's one Helluva match"

-motorcitydave, RIP

 

Thanks -- here's the full exchange from that thread:

 

Yes the AT150MLX has tamed inner groove distortion I was experiencing on some records using conical carts! It's a real pleasure to listen to this cart.

I'm disappointed AT discontinued the AT150MLX. Has anyone done a shootout to compare it with the new AT replacement: AT150Sa? AT moved from a microline to a shibata and nixed the boron cantilever. Seems like an economy move disguised as "progress." I wonder how the AT150Sa does with IGD vs the 150MLX...

 

I have a very close audiophile (and audio designer) friend who lives in Prescott. He works for RDL (do you know this company?). Next time I visit him, I would enjoy visiting you also. But, I have no forseeable plans at this time.