The Beatles: UK Response to US Capitol versions?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by John Porcellino, May 18, 2016.

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  1. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    Due to it not being the kind of material they wanted to release as a single.

    EMI did press an export single though, and it later became the title track of a UK EP.
     
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  2. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Those songs were not "left behind" or "held back" due to being "idiosyncratic and personal." As noted, they weren't recorded yet when Beatles VI was compiled, so they could not have appeared on there. They were omitted from Help because it was a film-soundtrack-only album. There was no album they could have been released on prior to Rubber Soul.

    And of course Dexter had no way of knowing what the Beatles' next album would sound like, so it can't be argued that he was holding them back because he knew they would fit with the material on Rubber Soul. The inclusion of those two songs on Rubber Soul is due to random happenstance. If they work well there that is entirely due to dumb luck, not any deliberate thematic genius by Capitol.

    There is no evidence there was any significant change in the demographic of the Beatles' audience with this album.
     
  3. drad dog

    drad dog Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    What ample evidence are you talking about?

    Business as usual means selling the records to tweens, as opposed to selling the records to adults. How am I shifting?

    You are saying the beatles made great artistic breakthroughs but no one was listening except the teens? You have got to tell us what books you're reading. Also I only have one canon, for me. I don't think about anyone elses canon so I am OK on that.
     
  4. drad dog

    drad dog Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    It was luck. But the forces behind it were coherent and understandable and are uncomfortable because they tend to call into question the infallibility of our heroes.
    .
    You need to check the wiki on the influence and recepition to Rubber Soul. I don't think you are knowledgable on it.
     
  5. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Is it really very surprising that a innovative lyricist like Lennon would regard a song with lines like "Is it right that you and I should fight every night? Just the sight of you makes nighttime bright, very bright" as one of his lesser efforts? That song is a throwback to 1963-64, and stands in stark contrast to the more complex and nuanced lyrics that appear on much of the album.
     
  6. nikh33

    nikh33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    You do realize that people age, right? A 14 year old in 1964 is 15 in 1965. And 18 in 1968. They grow, they mature. During their career The Beatles didn't stop selling to 12 year olds and start selling to 18 year olds, they were the same people, grown up.
     
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  7. drad dog

    drad dog Forum Resident

    Location:
    New England
    I couldn't disagree more. I always loved the sound of it. I never let lyrics ruin music for me. YMMV. The chords are beautiful, clever, and the other meanings in it are just great. A perfect song.
     
  8. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    Show me the reviews by New York Times music critics or other "thought leaders" from the Greatest Generation of Rubber Soul and Revolver, is what I mean. Show me some evidence that significant numbers of grown ups paid attention to those albums in the United States, pre-Pepper, and said, ah, something artistically relevant and important is going on here. I've never heard of that happening. I've only seen evidence that the Beatles started to be taken seriously as artists by adults in the United States on a wide scale after Pepper.

    Yes, I am saying that by and large, American adults were not listening to Rubber Soul in 1965 and saying, "this is an artistic breakthrough." I've never seen a shred of evidence for that. Please direct me to some.
     
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  9. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Obviously it was a popular and influential album. But there's no evidence that the audience demographic for it was substantially different than for any previous Beatles album, as you are claiming without any evidence. The people who were excited and influenced by it were people who had been listening to the band all along, which was primarily young people. It's not like Rubber Soul was Brian Wilson's first Beatles album.
     
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  10. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    Huh? No one is saying the Beatles were perfect. People are saying that the Beatles intended Rubber Soul to be heard as it was released in the UK, and that Capitol changed that, and those changes don't reflect any artistic intent.
     
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  11. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    Also "the Wiki" on Rubber Soul is not the definitive source for information on that album. Try Jonathan Gould's Can't Buy Me Love, Bob Spitz's biography of the band, Philip Norman's biography of Lennon, etc. None of them mention that album expanding the Beatles American audience to include adults.
     
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  12. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I think it's an enjoyable song in spite of the lyrics. But it's puzzling to me that you would call it "perfect" when you acknowledge it has lyrical flaws (even if they don't bother you). It's certainly possible to like (or even love) a work that's flawed, but it's strange to describe it as perfect.

    At any rate, Lennon was someone who put a primacy on lyrics, so it's understandable that he would regard the song as one of his lesser works.
     
  13. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Was the choice to have I've Just Seen a Face lead off the album, and It's Only Love be first on the second side, also a case of random happenstance?

    I don't know myself, and in any event the net result of a better album than the UK version is all that really matters. But I think you make too much of this perception of random happenstance. For example didn't you agree it was a great move to open Meet the Beatles with the one two of Hold Your Hand and Standing There? I could be wrong about that.
     
  14. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    England
    They just replaced two of the songs cut out of the sequence, in the same places they were cut from.
     
  15. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    I frankly will never understand how replacing the lyrically witty Drive My Car and the sonically gorgeous Nowhere Man with Face and It’s Only Love improves this album, just because the latter two songs sound “folky.” Nowhere Man isn’t folky?
     
  16. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I don't know. We don't know what Dexter was thinking. Was it "These are great songs, they deserve to be highlighted!" or "I deleted the first songs off sides one and two of the album so I need to pop something in there to fill the gaps I created"? It seems reasonable to postulate that he thought "Face" was a good song and made a conscious choice to highlight it. But I'm less convinced about "It's Only Love" which is a mediocre song at best. There's at least 6 or 7 songs on the US album that are better and more worthy of opening side two, if Dexter had actually been thinking about putting one of the best songs in that slot. I mean, do you really think "It's Only Love" is one of the top 3 or 4 songs on the album?

    At any rate, the point I was making is that (regardless of sequencing) the inclusion of those two songs on the album is completely random, and if they fit well it's fortuitous happenstance, not by design.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2018
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  17. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    For that matter, the notion that those two songs fit because US album is predominantly "acoustic folk" is puzzling. There's organs and electric guitars all over most of the actual Rubber Soul tracks. The more acoustic nature of the Help leftovers makes them stand out as different, rather than fit in.
     
  18. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    Yeah, I mean, this idea that Rubber Soul is "the folk album" and that Capitol understood this better than the Beatles is confusing to me. If the Beatles intended to make a primarily acoustic album, they would have done so. As it is, on the US Rubber Soul, you have the decidedly unfolky You Won't See Me, Think For Yourself (come on!), The Word, In My Life, Wait, and Run For Your Life. I basically think of the US Rubber Soul as a stopped-clock-right-twice-a-day situation, with the Help leftovers not being horrible fits, although the album is definitely less sophisticated or deep without "Car" or "Nowhere Man." But can you imagine if Capitol had had "You Like Me Too Much" and "Dizzy Miss Lizzy" left over, instead? Then those two songs would've been on the US Rubber Soul, right?
     
  19. nikh33

    nikh33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    And they would then have been 'perfect' and 'folk rock' too.
    So would Misery and There's a Place which Capitol still had left over from The Early Beatles, the album before the album before. It would all have been perfect. Because: America and nostalgia.
     
  20. nikh33

    nikh33 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Liverpool, England
    It's nice you have nostalgia for when you were 6 and thought It's Only Love was 'clever'.
     
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  21. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    Ah, derision…
     
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  22. mbleicher1

    mbleicher1 Tube Amp Curmudgeon

    Location:
    San Mateo, CA, USA
    Yeah, it's a snarky post, but the point stands - what exactly is "It's Only Love" adding to this collection of songs that improves the collection versus the UK tracklisting?
     
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  23. Colocally

    Colocally One Of The New Wave Boys

    Location:
    Surrey BC.
    So have we reached a consensus yet?
     
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  24. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    'Face' is the only one that is predominantly acoustic from the Help! leftovers. 'Wait' and Only Love' have plenty of electric atmospherics going on.

    I believe it is the IJSAF rambling straight into the heavy folk musings of 'Norwegian Wood' that gave this album its folkie reputation.

    Brian Wilson said that the album read like a collection of folk songs.
     
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  25. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    To the original poster's question?

    Some love, a lot of derision.
     
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