The Official Blu-ray/HD DVD Discussion Thread Part 2

oh btw....does the PS3 have component outputs? or is the HDMI output the only way to get the hi-def to a TV? I'm out of HDMI inputs but have a component input still available on my SXRD.

 

I'll forever disaggree with ya that the format war has been and continues to be beneficial. Right now, without HD-DVD, I suspect there wouldn't be a Blu player below $500. I suspect that the software would cost more and they's be using worse looking prints of the films. Fox is using worse prints as it is....

As much as I like Blu-ray, I think HD-DVD is way more suitable and economically practical for the mass-market. After all the animosity between Warner and Sony in the past decade, I'm really suprised that Warner went Blu.

I really don't want another price-gouging, Laserdisc-like format. I fear that's what Blu is gonna become. I think thje best outcome for consumers is uni-players and more possibilities of HD media. I just feel like the days of just one format may well be over? We'll see how determined Universal and Toshiba are.

HD-DVD works better for me with my Onkyo 805. I can't get my Panasonic decks to pass the video and audio through the reciever. My Toshiba A2 and A35 do this just fine. So, I run my BD30 via component so that the HDMI can deliver just audio.

Blu-ray has more uncertainty. If they really win somethin' in the marketplace will the Wee-jun Kodes all be enforced? 1.0, 1.1, and 2.0 players....will we even like the format when 2.0 players supposedly emerge? Will every 2.0 disc be slow to load and lack Resume? I'm figurin', yes. Say hello to Dizz-ney tea parties with famous animations.

HDMI problems seem to be more persistant with Blu for me. I've quit having any HDMI issues with HD-DVD. BD+ obviously caused problems with most Sony and Samsung players.

After all this time I'm not sold down the road on either format. I have a lot of lingering doubts about Blu. I really have fewer about HD-DVD as it's a finished format.

My ideal ending to the format war is Blu absorbing HD-DVD and playing it because it is a DVD legacy format. In this scenario, I see the most HD material published. I see the possibility of indie films using HD-DVD's lower costs to release. HD-DVD would be ideal for less demanding, budjet releases.....stuff like 90 minute comedies with undemanding audio or even demanding audio.

I'm stille curious purple. No format has won my heart just yet. I stille "love the smell of Napalm in the morning".

 

Excellent points. The software pricing issue is, I believe, a much larger issue for HD in general than some of the "home theater" enthusiast websites and commentators seem to believe, at least based on their comments. Mabye it's just because they're still caught up in the "format war" aspect of it all and how hardware pricing and profiles and whatnot are working their way out, but software pricing (and, I believe, selection) is an issue both for apprehensive potential new adopters as well as people who already buy one or both formats. Both camps have used and continue to use software sales figures as one of the major statistics in hashing out the outcome of the "format war" and for adoption of HD in general. It doesn't do either format's manufacturers a lot of good if they are losing money on hardware just to get the players into homes so that they can sell software if potential adopters are scared off by prices and don't buy hardware, and even those (like myself) who buy into the hardware don't buy as much software as they would if prices were lower.

When I bought both formats, I figured that there would be plenty of material I like that would not be coming out imminently if at all on HD, so I would still be buying SD DVD's. But I figured that for titles that came out in both SD DVD and one or both HD formats, I would definitely buy the HD version for a bit of a premium because, well, it would seem odd to have the HD players and not buy the HD version of any given movie. I never thought I would contemplate continuing to buy SD DVD's for titles that offer HD versions. But I'm actually considering it already on a few titles given the price difference in some cases.

But it seems like even SD DVD's are being priced higher, not neccesarily in terms of list price but in terms of sale price at retailers. I may be repeating myself from earlier posts in this instance, but I think the pricing on SD DVD's has a lot more to do with sagging sales for SD DVD's, as opposed to what some stories suggest which is that Warner believed that the HD "format war" was causing the sag in SD DVD sales. Maybe the pricing hasn't changed on SD DVD's as much as I think, but only a few years ago, I remember a lot more "loss leader" pricing on new DVD releases, sometimes new single-disc titles for $12.99 or $14.99. These days, I'm seeing only a handfull of new titles being sold on release week for less than $19.99. A few weeks ago, I was browsing different retailers and their new releases, and I was almost wondering if the new Amanda Bynes movie was being issued as a Criterion special edition or something!

So, at the very least, Blu-Ray (and HD-DVD if it keeps going) needs to get prices down. A lot of people are going to scoff at a new release being priced at $19.99 for the DVD and $27.95 or $29.99 for the Blu-Ray.

I've been reading a lot of internet discussions among the home theater crowds, and whenever the pricing issue with HD media is raised, a lot of the people simply say that anybody who pays $30 for an HD title is an idiot and with Amazon BOGO's and other sales and used bins, they pay $10-$15 per title. I'm sure this is true, as it is true for me with most of the titles I own. But that is not the way all consumers want to shop. New adopters, well, won't adopt under those circumstances. If a potential new adopter goes into a Best Buy or something and tells the sales person, "I'm interested in buying a Blu-Ray player, but the $30 movies are scaring me off", are they going to feel better about it if they are told that they can get cheaper prices, but they have go on Amazon to do it, and they have to wait an untold number of days, weeks, or months until Amazon decides to do a BOGO sale, and then they have to hope that the titles they want are included in that sale? That ain't gonna work, and that scenario would assume that a Best Buy sales person would actually point a customer to Amazon, and I don't know if that really happens too often. Best Buy's HD BOGO sales are barely a deal compared to buying the same two titles at full Amazon sales prices in some cases.

 

Interesting point. In the midst of "format war" discussions over the last few weeks, a lot of folks have been talking about the possibility of Toshiba bowing out and offering HD-DVD players that add on Blu-Ray playback. But it would be interesting to know if the Blu-Ray manufacturers, especially Sony, would ever consider adding HD-DVD playback. I imagine it wouldn't happen anytime soon, certainly not until HD-DVD and Toshiba have "officially" conceded.

If something like this did happen, though, I would tend to doubt that much of anybody would continue to publish on the HD-DVD format. Perhaps some really obscure stuff, but in terms of available titles and "new" releases at that point, in this scenario I would think that HD-DVD as a format that can be played back on Blu-Ray players would end up being a bit like "Video CD" playback on DVD players.

 

I think you may be right. The prices have to come down. Selling more volume will definitely help that.

Still, downloadable movies is bound to have an impact.

 

Just bear in mind that you may not be able to take full advantage of HD-XA2 unless your HDTV or projector supports 1080p/24 and/or 1080p/60...

 

It always struck me that one of the reasons DVD took off so much faster and was adopted so much more than Laserdisc was that Laserdiscs never seemed to, on the whole, come down in price to the $20 range, give or take. VHS tapes were priced better in the latter days of VHS, but a lot of people (including myself) didn't really start *owning* a lot of movies until they started buying DVD's for $10-$20 or even cheaper. Before I got a DVD player, 99% of the commercially-released VHS tapes I owned were music-related. I never thought much to buy movies.

In any event, while HD media is certainly priced lower and closer to the price of it's "lower rez" competition (DVD) than Laserdisc was compared to VHS, I think some consumers are viewing HD media as a bit like Laserdisc was in the 80's and into the early-mid 90's.

I've been saying for awhile, and this is just my own unscientific guess, that HD (in terms of hardware and software) will not be (and perhaps already isn't) as much of a "niche" as Laserdisc was. But it will not be adopted as widely (certainly in terms of software at least) as DVD has been.

And back to the topic of HD software, another issue that I alluded to in previous posts is that, aside from the pricing issue, I think the selection of titles isn't varied enough. I know that more titles become available as the format is more widely adopted (as happened with DVD), but HD releases seem to weighted even more heavily towards new day-and-date movie releases than DVD was in its early days (no doubt due to the newest films being the most impressive visually in HD). Then again, early adopters, one would think, would tend to be film enthusiasts that would like to see an older "classic" instead of "Daddy Day Camp" and the like. But I clearly don't get how the demographics and stats of HD titles that are selected for release work.

 

I have yet to see anything to sway my opinion that HD DVD and Bluray will be nothing more than niche formats in 5 years time.

The buying culture as a whole has obviously embraced paying for music downloads, and although the movie downloading has started, it will reach critical mass within 5 years. DirecTV, FiOS, cable, etc, have started the OnDemand service. Why rent a movie when you can use your remote and have it in less than 2 minutes? I know, I know, all the enthusiasts want to own the piece of plastic, and love every shiny surface of it. But enthusiasts do not make the market (see: SACD/DVD-A). And simplicity wins every time, it already won for music, it makes even more sense for movies. You might want to hear your favorite song 10 times in one week, but no one watches a movie that often. Hence the natural progression to a downloadable/short term version of the movie.

 

Although I don't know if the PS3 has component outputs since I'd never want such a machine it seems to me those HDMI cables are pretty easy to plug in and out, so just switch the cable to whatever high-def source you're using at the moment.

One thing I do know is the PS3 has only 2 analog audio outputs so you would need HDMI for multi-channel soundtracks, unless your high-def system is 2 channel only.

 

This is very much in line with my thinking that they need to lower prices to accelerate adoption to widen the base. Only a few years left to have a shot at replacing DVD. The economics of doing so, even partially, are huge...billion$ of course.

 

You can use component outputs from the PS3, you have to buy a $24 Sony MultiAV->component adaptor.

I'd recommend using HDMI, though. Use component for your cable/satellite box. Using HDMI with the Sony, you'll get great upconversion for DVDs as well.

 

Don't own a single movie, just a few fishing dvd's.
I want a movie, I order one from Directv.
Simplicity rules.

 

Target has a deal on the lowest priced Sony blu-ray player this week. It's $389, but you get a $100 gift certficate with it.

 

If you get to decide what niche is, then of course you can't be wrong, Blu-ray will not be comparable to DVD. I believe in 5 years, Blu-ray will be in about 40% of US homes is my prediction as HDTV will be in about 80% and half will want the best possible source for rental and collection. I don't consider 40% of US households niche.

Chris

 

Well, if you can predict Blu-ray will be in 40% of US households within 5 years, then I can predict it will be substantially less, and therefore "niche"

Would you have predicted 5 years ago that 90% of everyone that owns an MP3-type device would have an Apple iPod? And that portable CD players would go the way of the Dodo bird? And one of the hottest gifts for everyone from ages 6-60 is an iPod with an iTunes gift card so they can download their favorite music?

I'm not trying to argue, I just want everyone to acknowledge that there are forces at work behind the scenes that are paving the way for digital/HD downloads. Hey, I love superior quality disc formats and all they have to offer too, but physical media is on the way out the door! I know you've noticed the incredible shrinking media section at Best Buy. Instead of a wall of new release CDs, it is replaced with a smaller version which prominently displays iTunes gift cards and digital-download-cards for the hot new releases. What is not obvious about this??

Not to mention the infrastructure quitely going on from content providers to allow for high-bandwith downloading of protected content straight to your TV. DirecTV just started its own "OnDemand" service this month. AT&T U-verse and Verizon FiOS (both which provide HD on demand) are the hottest growing TV providers in the country. You're not going to stop the phone companies

How much would companies like to charge you $5-6 for an HD movie that you can keep indefinitely on their servers, to watch as often as you want, as long as you don't change providers? It keeps you 'sticky' as a customer, and maybe you can even watch that movie whenever, and as often as you want. Just like iTunes. Why would Mr. and Mrs. Joe Average ever drive to a Best Buy to pay $29.99 for a Blu-ray version? Don't say because 'they're a collector and want to own it', because iTunes already disproves that.

All that said, I'm fine being in the niche of movie/CD physical media owners. I don't buy anything from iTunes, and have never paid to watch something On-Demand. Doubtful I ever will. Still, that does not stop the hundreds of thousands that do this every single day. Or the millions that will do this in the future.

Yup, you and millions of others. Nothing's going to stop this.

 

I received my refurb Toshiba HD-XA2 today from Overstock.com via UPS.

Fired it up with the HD-DVD "Breach" and its working/looking good. Much heavier sturdier unit than my A2.

I see it has firmware 2.0.

Do you think I can use the disc Rachael sent me for the A2 to update this player to 2.7?

 

Possibly. What does the Toshiba disc say on it regarding the models that 2.7 is for? Although all the second-gen units are on the same firmware number, the actual firmware is different for each player, i.e. changes are model specific.

Old Panasonic firmware discs used to have several models on one disc, Toshiba may be the same.

Safest bet is always via ethernet

 

I would strongly advise against it. In any case, official firmware is now up to 2.8.

Tom

 

I ended up calling Toshiba directly and they will be sending me 2.8 as soon as they get the next shipment in (backordered as of today).

btw...I still have not recieved the 2.7 update disc for my A2 when I sent in the card that comes with the player, so it can take awhile.

 

So far I'm pretty impressed with my XA2. "Breach" looks great. I'll have to watch that with my wife.

Now I'm trying a regular DVD. Just put on "Captivity".

 

Did ya call Miss Cleo for this figur?
I hope you're right but I'm not nearly as optimistic. I think Blu will need a hybrid DVD/Blu disc. Somebody at AVS told me that single-sided BD wit CD or DVD content are in the spec's. If I was the BDA, I'd demonstrate a Combi disc soon. I'd broaden the appeal of the format and see what happens.

Many of the early adopters hated HD-DVD Combi discs but I thought that feature was made in heaven for the mass-market.

Sony and associates may wanna squash those pesky, recordable DVD's. I'm not so sure the public wants DVD squashed just yet, if ever...???

I think the BDA is gonna have a hard time making 40% in 5 years....I'd like to believe your quesstimate but with the economy not so good, I'm skeptical.

 

HHGreg had them for $288 last week but went back up to $399 but with 5 movies in the mail this week. I think I'd rather have a low price and get my own discs....

 

HDTV growth is terrific and I just have faith that once we can end the format war and all of the confusion and reluctance that has caused ends, things are going to start rocking and rolling for Blu-ray. HDTV should be in about 80% of US homes in 5 years and half of them are going to want a great format for the best quality HD.

I also predict a huge win for New England this weekend.

Go Blu!

Chris

 

Thanks - didn't know this. I downloaded the 2.8 ISO - burned it to a CD-R - updated my A2 all in the space of 20 minutes to do it all (most of that time was spent with the player updating the firmware from the burned ISO image on the CD-R).

 

For those that have done Toshiba HD-DVD player firmware updates, am I correct in reading these comments that you can call Toshiba and they will send out the firmware update disc in some sort of expedited fashion? I sent in the little card for my HD-A3 at the beginning of December and still haven't got anything. I also sent in a card for an HD-A2 model at the end of December and still haven't got anything either. I haven't had any playback problems with the HD-A3 (the HD-A2 is mothballed as my future backup player, so I don't know if it would have any problems), so I don't need the firmware updates anytime soon. But I'd like to make sure I have the firmware updates, especially for the HD-A2 incase I end up pulling the thing out a couple years down the road or something.

I've probably already said this two or three times in various HD threads, but Sony certainly makes it easier to get firmware update discs in the mail with their Blu-Ray players. They allow me to simply ask for one online, and they deliver it within a few days.