The Velvet Underground: The Matrix Tapes 4CD Box Set

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DeeThomaz, Sep 4, 2015.

  1. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    Here's what a representative for Abram posted online back in 2002, with Abram's account of the source of the LIVE 1969 source tapes.

    Hi!
    Glad I found this thread. I represent Peter Abram and The Matrix Recording Co. You'll be happy to know that we are currently in negotiation to have Mr. Abram's tapes released in the "Bootleg" series. Mr. Abram recorded, with the band's permission, several hours of the Velvet Underground at the Matrix in 1969 from a board feed onto 15ips 4 track reel to reel. During the taping of these shows, Lou Reed requested copies of some of the tapes. An assistant to Mr. Abram dubbed some of the performances down to a 2 track reel to reel tape, with the agreement that these tapes would not be used for commercial purposes without the involvement of Mr. Abram. The band was currently unsigned, and Mr. Abram used his own equipment and tape to record the band, which was booked for several nights in his club. Some years later, the "Live '69" album appeared on the market. Suspecting the worst, Mr. Abram purchased a copy and found that though the first couple of tracks were from Texas, the remainder of the album was from his Matrix tapes. He took legal action, and settled out of court for a five figure sum. When the "Live '69" album was released on CD, no attempt was made to contact Mr. Abram to obtain the original tapes, or to enquire as to what other material he may have in his possession. For at least two of the tracks on the "Quine" box, while Mr. Quine was recording the band onto a cassette tape using a plastic microphone, Mr. Abram was in a booth behind him recording the show onto 4 track reel to reel.
    Sincerely,
    James Healey
     
  2. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    My instinct is that it's very unlikely Abram did it. One admittedly off the wall theory I've been mulling over is what if Lou Reed re-wrote the bridge around this time and played both versions over the course of the bands performances at that The Matrix over those two weeks? Thus, Paul Nelson ended up with two "Lisa Says" to chose from with two different bridges, and decided to edit them together to create a (magnificent) hybrid.

    If this theory is right (and let's face it, it almost certainly isn't), it would imply Universal re-created the edit when the track appeared on last year's 3rd LP box.
     
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  3. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    Whoever originally compiled and sequenced the original 2-LP Live 1969 set really knew what to listen out for - being as the material on it hails from two different recording locations/recorders - and the tracks one-after-the-other tend to alternate between locations more often than not.

    Was it Lou? Hats off to whoever.
     
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  4. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    Paul Nelson. Cheers to him!
     
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  5. Syscrusher

    Syscrusher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    B) "I am the Water Boy, the real game's not over here."
     
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  6. notesfrom

    notesfrom Forum Resident

    Location:
    NC USA
    I have to wonder if Lou was consulted on this, though - the deft sequencing/inclusions and showing of versatility make the set a veritable Lou song portfolio. And though I guess that would be the case by virtue of Lou's songs being the VU material in and of itself, it seems that one mere mortal would have his hands full with this task, and use it as an opportunity to call in the creator for some extra guidance (in this case, Lou).

    However, maybe Nelson did go it alone - (below article from Unterberger) says Nelson was 'in touch with Lou Reed' at the time, but doesn't clue in to a direct Lou involvement (other than perhaps offloading some of the tapes onto Mercury):

    http://www.richieunterberger.com/vuexc13.html
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
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  7. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    You can hear the full version of this on the discs just released last year with the VU 45th Anniversary set. There is a bit of a pause between the two parts that was edited out for Live '69, but it was all one recording.
     
  8. Brett Stampley

    Brett Stampley Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Louisiana
    All the Lisa Says bridge talk is driving me nuts so I did a direct comparison between the Live 69 & 45th anniversary versions . The 4 track matrix version has 3 additional transition cords by Lou before the 3 note scale before kicking into "Why Am I so Shy". Live 69 for whatever reason cuts those 3 cords off and starts with the 3 note scale, this leaves a bit of abruptness of ambiance and it is to blame for the theory that the two parts are from separate recordings. The 4 track matrix version has much more natural and believable transition. So its my non-professional opinion that its absolutely the same run through, at least on the 45th Anniversary edition.
     
  9. Edgard Varese

    Edgard Varese Royale with Cheese

    Location:
    Te Wai Pounamu
    Totally agree. :agree:
     
  10. bobbydriver

    bobbydriver Forum Resident

    Yep – the full version on the 45th Anniversary box shows that in 1974 they basically edited out a slightly fluffed transition section – which is why it always sounded weird.
     
  11. Syscrusher

    Syscrusher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    I'm hoping that this Matrix set includes the words 'Bootleg Series Volume 2' in the title. And that they start to release one volume a year for..., forever.
     
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  12. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    5 years and 4 months from now, the entire canon of unreleased Lou Reed era Velvet Underground material will be in the public domain in the EU. So I would think this flow is going to continue for the foreseeable future.
     
  13. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    The Super Deluxe boxes have sort of been a "stealth" Bootleg Series (albeit an expensive way to go about it) releasing several of the intended BS shows. So you can think of Valleydale as Vol. 2, Gymnasium as Vol. 3, 2nd Fret as Vol. 4, and The Matrix as Vol. 5!

    It kills me to think there were 11 (!) BS Volumes mastered and ready to go, pending resolution of the legal issues that surrounded them.
     
  14. Syscrusher

    Syscrusher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    Wow, I'd never heard that they had 11 lined up, that's a lot, I'll have to think about what those might've been.
    I did realize that they seemed to have a change in format from the Bootleg Series to the Deluxe Boxes, but I don't see why they can't go back now that the Deluxe albums have run their course. Especially since this Matrix Box will set a new precedent. So why can't we get Bootleg Series Volume 3 - The Gymnasium Tapes, which would include multiple shows from April 67 and of course the re-release of the material from the Deluxe White Light/White Heat, which they love to do anyway.
    You could also release the Factory Rehearsals with the full set.
     
  15. Syscrusher

    Syscrusher Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    The Boston Tea Party Tapes, 3 shows I think mentioned in Unterberger's book still need to be released.
    So maybe they could have been:
    1. Quine Tapes '69
    2. Factory Rehearsal '66
    3. Valleydale Ballroom '66
    4. Gymnasium '67
    5. La Cave Oct '68
    6. Matrix '69
    7. End of Cole '69
    8. Boston Tea Party '68 -'69
    9. 2nd Fret '70
    10. Max's Freeman Tape '70
    11. ? not sure - I'm just dying for more '65 demo's. Really hoping for a Lou Reed or Velvet Underground Early Years set.
     
  16. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    There used to be a list on the Internet, but I can't find it anymore. Nor can I remember it's exact contents, but it basically included all the known bootlegs (at the time, Gymnasium wasn't circulating so it was the most exciting prospect). Because a deal hadn't been workout out with Abram, I don't think Matrix would have been part of it (aside from the Quine tracks, of course) but otherwise maybe we can pound a a plausible list?

    Maybe:

    1. The Quine Tapes
    2. Valleydale
    3. Gymnasium
    4. 2nd Fret
    5. Factory Rehearsals
    6. La Cave '68
    7. Boston Tea Party '68
    8. Boston Tea Party '69
    9. End of Cole Ave- 1st Night
    10. End Of Cole Ave- 2nd Night
    11. Hilltop/Ostrich

    Would the Guitar Amp Tape maybe take Hilltop's spot?
     
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  17. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    Beaten to the punch!
     
  18. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    I've been listening to "The Professor Tapes" on and off for most of the long weekend. They cover 4 Boston Tea Party shows, and the "guitar amp tape" (not included) covers a fifth. The tapes range from not too bad to a bit sonically challenged. At the conclusion of the 7-11-69 concert there's a rather charming moment when the crowd calls for an encore, and two people close to the microphone (Mr. and Mrs. Professor???) adamantly call for "Sister Ray" over and over. Their wish is granted.
     
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  19. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    Great list. And I much prefer the approach you took of bundling the various BTP and Cole Ave shows together. But unless I have my chronology wrong (I'll look it up), I don't think the Freeman tape was known yet at the time the BS lineup was determined (not totally confident I'm right there) so it probably wasn't due for release.
     
  20. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    This is my effort to catalog all the known recordings from the Abram Matrix archive, by cross-referencing Richie Unterberger’s account with Oliver Landemaine’s review of the discretely circulated 22 track Matrix Sampler (another gem from the Velvet Forum archives). Sadly, I’ve only heard the shorter 11 track version of the sampler that circulated much more widely. If anyone is interested to examine the Unterberger and Landemaine pieces I relied upon, I've included them on the bottom of the post.

    As it stands, this listing seems to account for all but 10-15 of the contents of the full 42 track Matrix Tapes archive. It includes 23 different songs, several with multiple performances. I made a couple assumptions that could prove wrong. First, that Lou Reed’s spoken introduction is indexed as a separate track. That’s how it appears on the sampler but it’s not how other introductions are handled on the recordings heard on 3rd LP box. Second, I listed “Sweet Bonnie Brown” and “It’s Just Too Much” as separate tracks. If either of these assumptions are wrong (and I suspect they are, but I was trying to be conservative in my guesswork), it’ll open up another two “slots” that can’t be accounted for. Which is a very good thing, more opportunities for genuine surprises.

    The 3rd LP SDE featured alypternate performances of "What Goes On," "Over You," "We're Going to Have A Real Good Time Together," and "I Can't Stand It Anymore." The LIVE 1969 performances would seem to be very likely inclusions as well.

    * indicates a song that was on the Matrix Tapes used to compile LIVE 1969. Since Unterberger stated “ There are also additional, as-yet unreleased versions of most of the songs that do make it onto the LP” it seems reasonable that most, if not all of the Matrix songs from that album are accounted for here.
    ** indicates a song that was included on LIVE 1969 from End of Cole Ave. Since “Pale Blue Eyes” fell into this category and yet wasn’t mentioned in Unterbeger’s overview, it seems plausible that Abram also recorded performances of one or both of these songs as well.

    1. Intro
    2. Waiting For The Man #1
    3. Waiting For The Man #2
    4. Heroin #1
    5. Heroin #2
    6. Heroin #3
    7. Heroin #4
    8. Black Angel’s Death Song
    9. Venus In Furs #1
    10. Venus In Furs #2
    11. There She Goes Again #1
    12. There She Goes Again #2
    13. There She Goes Again #3
    14. Rock & Roll
    15. Sweet Jane
    16. Ocean
    17. I’m Set Free
    18. After Hours #1
    19. After Hours #2
    20. Some Kind Of Love
    21. White Light/White Heat
    22. Over You
    23. We’re Gonna Have A Real Good Time Together
    24. Beginning To See The Light
    25. I Can’t Stand It
    26. Sister Ray
    27. Pale Blue Eyes
    28. New Age *
    29. Sweet Bonnie Brown*
    30. It’s Just Too Much *
    31. Femme Fatale **
    32. I’ll Be Your Mirror **
    33. ?
    34. ?
    35. ?
    36. ?
    37. ?
    38. ?
    39. ?
    40. ?
    41. ?
    42. ?


    Richie Unterberger:

    http://www.richieunterberger.com/vuexc10.html

    Those four hours of half-inch, four-track tape amount to 42 songs, including versions of a few tunes that don’t appear on 1969 Velvet Underground Live, among them three takes of ‘There She Goes Again,’ two each of ‘Venus In Furs’ and ‘After Hours,’ and one apiece of ‘The Black Angel’s Death Song,’ ‘I’m Set Free,’ and ‘Sister Ray.’ There are also additional, as-yet unreleased versions of most of the songs that do make it onto the LP, including no less than four takes of ‘Heroin.’

    Oliver Landemaine:

    http://akson.sgh.waw.pl/~kg23187/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1243&start=10


    "I've dig out some old notes that you might find interesting. I wrote this around 2002 just after I came across the sampler.
    "1969" stands for "1969 Velvet Underground Live With Lou Reed".
    "Quine" stands for "The Velvet Underground Bootleg Series Volume 1: The Quine Tapes".
    Date format is dd/mm/yyyy
    The Velvet Underground
    Late November - Early December 1969
    The Matrix, San Francisco CA

    Sampler

    Tape 1

    1. Intro (2:32) [previously unreleased]
    2. Waiting For My Man (4:22) [same as Quine 3] 27/11/1969
    3. Heroin (3:50) [same as Quine 2] 23/11/1969
    4. Black Angel's Death Song (3:36) [same as Quine 3] 23/11/1969
    5. Venus In Furs (3:15) [previously unreleased]
    6. There She Goes (1:55) [previously unreleased]

    Tape 2

    7. Rock & Roll (2:51) [same as 1969 and Quine 3] 25/11/1969
    8. Sweet Jane (2:22) [same as 1969]
    9. Ocean (1:57) [same as 1969]
    10. Heroin (2:31) [same as 1969 (vol. 2)]

    Tape 4

    11. Waiting For My Man (2:39) [previously unreleased]
    12. Set Free (1:44) [previously unreleased]
    13. After Hours (1:40) [previously unreleased]
    14. So Kinds Of Love (2:07) [previously unreleased]
    15. There She Goes (1:21) [previously unreleased]
    16. White Light (1:40) [same as Quine 2] 01/12/1969
    17. Venus In Furs (1:45) [same as Quine 2] 01/12/1969

    Tape 5

    18. Over You (1:46) [same as 1969]
    19. Good Time Together (2:04) [same as 1969]
    20. Beginning To See The Light (1:55) [same as 1969]
    21. Can't Stand It Anymore (1:51) [same as 1969]
    22. Sister Ray (7:44) [same as Quine 2] 03/12/1969


    The sound quality on the sampler is stunning - of course better than the "Quine's tapes" version (just compare the two Sister Ray in example...) but also superior to the "1969 Live" versions which have some slight hiss and audible cracks (they probably used some acetate copies instead of original tapes)."
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
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  21. eelkiller

    eelkiller One of the great unwashed

    Location:
    Northern Ontario
    Sorry to veer of track again but has anyone got any confirmation besides the Amazon.com link? Is it listed anywhere else as upcoming?
     
  22. DeeThomaz

    DeeThomaz Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    In The Felony Room
    Not that I've been able to find. It's not even on the Non-US Amazon sites, last I checked.

    Strikes me Amazon US screwed up and posted the entry prematurely. They were presumably supposed to wait to coincide with whenever the official announcement was scheduled. I wonder if it had anything to do with the holiday weekend (the entry was discovered Friday night, I think).
     
  23. eelkiller

    eelkiller One of the great unwashed

    Location:
    Northern Ontario
    That is why I am skeptical that Amazon has jumped the gun here. I hope I am wrong and have it ordered.
     
  24. GreenFuz

    GreenFuz Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    No, no, no! The Hilltop Festival is one of my favourites. It may have been Sterling Morrison who said that they liked playing outdoors because it allowed them to turn it up, but they rarely had the opportuntity.

    The factory rehearsals don't mean that much to me, unless they include Symphony of Sound. But Hilltop is essential.
     
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  25. RayS

    RayS A Little Bit Older and a Little Bit Slower

    Location:
    Out of My Element
    The nice thing about Hilltop, apart from the performance itself, is that the outdoor venue allows for a tape with a lot less echo than the usual audience jobs. That alone makes for an interesting listen.
     

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