Transitioning from Vintage to Modern (speakers)

The Elacs will play much louder than the Jones Pioneers. I had the Pioneers for a couple years, then had the Elac B6's for a couple years. The B6s are rock and roll speakers. Your HPM's were designed by a former JBL engineer and were designed to compete with 70s era JBLS. You are not going to be happy with some of the speakers people are recommending. I had a set of JBL L40s back in the day, so I know what you are used too. Check out the new Elac B6 series 2, I bet they will be the speaker you are looking for. Best part 300 bucks retail for the pair. You do need to add a couple hundred more for sturdy stands though.

 

And a sub? The idea of a sub makes me cringe (I associate them with home theater setups).

 

I think it's the technological advances in drivers and cabinet design that allows for smaller, thinner speakers that perform as well as larger drivers and boxes from 10 years ago.

 

I think we agree more than you think we do. There have been major refinements in materials engineering and computer aided design, although the basic design has not changed. (Speaker cones and cross over filters in a box.)

Modern performance is not in question. As I said, I love my slim Audio Physic floorstanders for their speed, resolution, and ability to image. I don't think there was a speaker around 1970 that could pull this off in quite the same way, especially such a slim one. And they can do a disappearing act in a way that a big speaker could never do.

However, technical performance is not everything. There is no way (yet) to measure 'satisfying mids' or 'non fatiguing highs', or 'connecting the listener to the music'. I haven't seen these specs on a speaker yet. So in the meantime, all we can do is listen and compare.

And at the end of the day, a big fat speaker still sounds like a big fat speaker. I have never heard a slim tower that sounds like a big fat speaker, unfortunately.

 

For vintage at $600, I would look into older refurbished Tannoy DC speakers (perhaps easier to find in Europe), B&W's older series (from the 80s for instance), the classic JBLs, perhaps Wharfedale, Castle. For your budget you should be able to find former top models from the 80s.

For modern, I'd look into Epos, Golden Ear, Focal, KEF.

In the end it's all aboit finding something you really, really like for the long term. If I am honest, you will probably have to do quite a few iterations (and learn along the way) before you get there. I know it's a journey for me.

 

I would look at vintage Wharfedale's from the 1960's. They are speakers which are off the radar. Which makes them prime targets for acquisition.

While everyone thinks of Wharfedale speakers as coming from an England, that is only partly true. They has a US manufacturing facility in Westbury N.Y.

In England, people had smaller houses and their tastes in speakers were primarily the BBC type monitors that were around at the time.

In the USA, the homes were larger and the American market wanted big bass. They produced different speakers in the plant but more notably W60's, W70' and W90's. I have acquired all three models.

You can find these speakers on eBay on a regular basis. They are of old school construction, so they are heavy for their size. They are almost always sold "For Local Pick-Up" only due to their size and weight. It usually cost to ship the larger ones, the W70's and the larger W90's than they are being sold for.

On top of this, not like a pair of late model tower speakers, where you just put them back into the original boxes and drop them off at UPS, original boxes fro these are practically non-existent. No seller wants to assume the liability for shipping these heavy furniture grade cabinets in makeshift shipping boxes, which would be a recipe for disaster.

These are excellent sounding speakers. I am going to post some photos.

Holding up the coffee service are a locally obtained pair that I I found advertised on eBay at from an estate sale, I think the I purchased them for about $112-ea. (this is not a typo)! When you first get speakers which have been sitting unused for years, they are going to sound like absolute crap and will take days to break them back in properly. If you audition a pair that sounds like crap, do not let it disturb you!

One of the things that add to make the shipping more expensive are the weight issues, further enhanced by having sand filled backs to dampen cabinet resonances. In the photo below, you can view a pair of late 1960's W70's in natural walnut cabinets (they are the ones holding up the coffee service).

BTW... I operate a small motel, this is the former lobby. The large Altec Lansing theater speakers are also vintage, but I doubt that they will work for you.



Here are the W60's and W90's. Which are not currently in the system, due largely to space limitations.

Here is a photo of the vintage Wharfedale W60's (top speakers), very nice for smaller installations, very nice for Jazz.



On the bottom are the W90's. A replacement 12" woofer for one of the W90's, is sitting on top of the pair of W60's.

The W90's are double cabinets. Meaning, They have two of everything the W70's have in their cabinets, times two. The cabinets of the W90's are furniture grade. Nicest speakers that you have ever seen, for normal home use. Mine are in perfect condition.

Since these were manufactured on N.Y. and with the density of population in the area, you can always find a pair that are available locally, for sale on eBay, but you will have to come pick them up yourself. I have a moving guy, so I have him go to Northern Florida to pick up things for me.

Just keep an eye out on eBay, be patient and a pair will come along.

Here is a current listing with a Buy-It-Now price of $325 (or Make Offer). They are a three way speaker with a 12" bass driver, a 4" woofer and a paper cone tweeter.

WHARFEDALE W60 E ACHROMATIC 3 WAY SPEAKERS



Here is a gorgeous pair of W70's in furniture grade cabinets that are located in NJ, for a Buy-It-Now price of $450 (or make offer).



Remember, don't buy crappy looking one's, there is no reason to, as ones in good to excellent condition you would expect them to be.

There is another pair of W70's for sale in the Richmond Virginia area for $285.

Here are some W70's with are stands for $369.99 in the Vestal N.Y area.

There are others in MA and other areas not that far from you.

Keep checking this eBay search, Wharfedale speakers W60 W70 W90.

You just need to exercise some due diligence and you will be rewarded.

I have driven the W70's that you see in my office very loud and clean, using a 60's vintage Scott 222C EL84 class amplifier that is rated at 22-WPC.

Enjoy.

 

I don’t know, I would like the OP to experience a modern set of speakers.
They will suprise. Different flavor of ice cream

 

They will also be more expensive to get a pair of quality speakers. Why doesn't the OP go somewhere and audition some modern speakers to see if he agrees with their sound signature. He is not exactly out in the boonies.

People used to vintage sound do not usually adapt well to entry level modern speakers, with their bass centric and high frequency emphasized sound signatures which, on entry level speakers are designed more for the home theater masses, not the audio specific market.

The OP can get some nice Polk Audio speakers from New Egg. Polk is also offering a 40% discount off of their RTi line.

The OP has stated a preference for modern bookshelf speakers, instead of towers. So that means that the OP is going to have to invest additional unneeded money in speaker stands and either give up an extra lower octave or buy a sub.

Neither choices are in his best audio related interests, IMO.

 

True brother, but I get the feeling he’s curious. Yes he should audition for sure.

 

Instead of jumping 40 years all at once, maybe try 10 years or so first. Klipsch Forte's have dynamics you are accustomed to and are more refined and detailed than the Pioneers. There are many examples from the 80's and 90's that should/could be an improvement for you without ditching the proper scale of presentation.

Like the previous posters stated, go out and start listening to other products and make some notes.

 

I just wish I was shopping for speakers

 

Not motel Hell but Motel Hell Yea!

 

My favorite audio components are speakers, because what you hear comes from the speakers, like it or not.

 

BS

I find many modern speakers to have a great midrange, and detail and imaging to blow away 'vintage' speakers. The midrange is crystalline and not a smear with detail missing. I melt when I hear many singers in my home with my setup - 'to die for' is what I would call it.

 

To the OP, get off your can and go listen to some speakers and make the judgement yourself. We all hear differently and we all have a different idea of what music is supposed to sound like. NO ONE can make that decision for you.

Also look in CL as there are usually a lot of speakers that may interest you and save you a lot of $$$$$$$. Just be sure to research price on the 'net.

 

I agree with this opinion, although I would have likely have found a more diplomatic way to state it.

I've enjoyed plenty of speakers, both vintage and new alike over the past fifteen years since moving into a house where my system resides in a room that it "acoustically challenging". You can get a lot of value for the dollar with vintage speakers, while modern speakers offer some additional benefits. At the end of the day, speakers needs to be pleasing to the listener's ear while working within the room where they are to be placed. Good luck to the OP!

 

Hey! He’s from NY.
Refreshing take on the whole ting

 

True enough, lol. I just hope the message isn't ignored because of the manner in which it was delivered. I thought it was some of the best input of all.

 

Anemic pretty much sums up every and all small standmount speaker on the market and the ones with metal or ribbon tweeters are more than likely also going to give you your other dread "sterile"

You look at those "classic" vintage speakers - for example Klipsch, Tannoy, Wharfdedale - three companies that have been around practically forever - all three have brought back their "stone-age" speaker lines - and guess what - they are the FLAGSHIP lines from them to this very day. Sure the new ones will have some modern caps and parts and wiring connections but the physics doesn't change. Even my highly touted Audio Note E has been selling for over 25 years AND it sold under the Audio Innovations label and the Snell label for another 10 years prior and the cabinet calculations go back to L.L. Beranek in 1940.

I recently heard a very old pair of Tannoy Canterburry speakers which on things that matter were superb easily bettering narrow baffle speakers in 5 figures.

Modern speakers at low price points are superior to old speakers at low price points but the classics of the past do a lot right - they just need some TLC and some replacement parts perhaps. But good classic speakers will trounce most new speakers under $2000 and REALLY trounce speakers at $600.

 

I wonder what the newer versions of those Stone Age speakers sound like. Maybe they are a way to get new speaker technology with the benefits of the vintage dimensions, etc. But not cheap, I bet!

 

They made good and bad speakers 40+ years ago, just as they make good and bad speakers today. It really just depends on your preferences. I do however think that today's budget speakers generally sound better than budget models of old.

There have been advancements with aforementioned CAD and materials, but I think little more has been learned regarding the physics of acoustics. With a new pair of speakers, part of what one hears as improvement is very likely the newness of parts - fresh caps and driver suspensions, perfectly aligned voice coils, no dried out ferrofluid etc.

 

I own a new pair of the RP-150M's, and being an owner of many pairs of vintage and "modern" speakers I can assure you the newly designed RP's sound unbelievable for the price point. I've also refurbished a set of the 200 watt (with the silver rings on the vent) HPM-100's, and listened to them for a bit on a vintage rig. While the Elac's are fine speakers at their price point, I've not heard them, but read the info posted in the link below. Good luck, and don't be askeered to buy some "modern" speakers.

Klipsch Reference Premiere RP-160M vs ELAC Debut B6

 

Did you like the experience of hearing the Pioneer HPM-100s? Do you feel you get the same presence from the RP-150M's because they're just that good? Or would you save up for bigger-sized modern speakers to get the vintage effect?

 

The HPM-100's are from my era, and as others mentioned they were voiced for rock n' roll to compete with the JBL's of that period. Back when I was a late-teen, I loved them along with JBL 4311's, etc. Today I prefer a more accurate speaker with a flat frequency response. As far as saving up for bigger speakers, bigger speakers move more air and will give you a more lifelike experience vs. a bookshelf speaker. Again, we are speaking in generalities here and I'm painting with a large brush. I think the new RP-150M and 160M sound very natural, open, and have a good mid-range (presence) without being harsh. Can they compete with my larger Klipsch floorstanders? No, but you are talking about a budget here. As far as bigger-sized modern speakers to get the vintage effect, I've not heard anything recently that fits that description, and certainly not within the budget you put forth.

I run some Polk Monitor 7B's, a truly vintage bookshelf speaker, that I re-capped the crossovers on. I picked them up for $60.00 on craigslist, and they are not perfect cosmetically but the drivers were in perfect condition. They are my main speakers in my office system, and I couldn't touch their sound with anything new for under $1500.00 So it comes down to what other gear you have in your chain, and how a vintage (performing up to spec) or a modern speaker synergizes with that gear. Along with your room, and the type of music you listen to. I think the new little Klipsch bookshelves sound very good indeed, but they are a relatively small bookshelf speaker. Can they produce the amount of air and SPL level that your HPM-100's can? No way. Can they sound very good, absolutely.

One more thought, if you've not re-capped your HPM's, you're not hearing them perform the way they can. If you have the desire and a quality soldering iron, you can breathe new life into them by replacing the capacitors. They are going on 40+ years old, and the caps they used back then in speaker crossovers were never meant to last 40 years.

 

If you want entry level bookshelf speakers you are not talking about large cabinets and big drivers which play deep. B/C ones that do are stupid expensive, but, they image well.

If you go with bookshelves and I can recommend some that I use, that you can get good buy's on. Meaning, like my vintage Wharfedale speakers are, which sound killer, these bookshelf speakers will sound good but will also be within your budget.

The thing that (IMO) you should get out of your mind is that subwoofer's are mostly for HT LFE's channel. That is OK because most of them are. Since, since my earlier days, I had decent economy towers (Polk Monitor 70's Series II, from New Egg $200/ea.), in my office, at the motel that I operate.

My first sub here was bought for HT use. But now, I using two subs in my present system configuration and all of my speakers are quite large. One front tower weighs 75-lbs. and the the other one weighs 100-lbs. while both of these speakers play low, I still have a 15" passive commercial horn loaded sub, driven by a 1,600 watt Crown class-D power amp.

Here is that sub (which can sustain a SPL of 133dB continuous program material).

And dat's the truth. I have modern speakers, lots of them and I also have and thoroughly enjoy my vintage speakers. If I didn't think that Whardfedale speakers were well worthwhile, I wouldn't have three pairs of them. I also have legacy Klipsch and Altec Lansing products.

Manufacturer's of vintage equipment had extensive knowledge of physics and designed their speakers to coincide with the laws of physics to get the maximum performance out of them.

When I evaluate a speaker's performance, I listen, using many different types of music.

One day, with some guests over, I had hooked up a newly acquired Scott 222C amp from the early 1960's that uses tubes in the EL84 family and puts out a whole 22-WPC. We had the Wharfedale W90's blasting with bass heavy Sundowner music.

Here are a nice bookshelf speakers. They are Era Design Four and Five speakers. Peachtree Audio was Era and sold speakers for HT and stereo before they became Peachtree Audio. These speakers were designed by the talented Michael Kelly from Aerial Acoustics.



Here is a review of them from the 6-Moons web site.

When they first came out, they were $1k/pr. The D5's are still sold by Peachtree.

Here is an eBay listing for a pair of D5's that have been factory refurbished. There are three days remaining on this auction.

There is a starting bid of $327, with 9-watching and zero bids so far. There is a Buy-It-Now price of $469.

Peachtree Audio D5 Bookshelf Speakers - Cherry [PAIR]

Also, from an earlier post of mine on the forum.

A good friend of mine is using them in his room paired with a Peachtree Audio Decco65 and he really likes the sound. I used to have that pair in my bedroom. I think they are really nice sounding. I have several pairs of Era/Peachtree speakers.

When I switched out the old amplifier for the Decco65, I also gave him a small Martin Logan, Dynamo 8" 75-Watt sub to use with them.

He thinks that they are the perfect combination.