Tube Problems and Cons - Need HELP!

That is the preamp with the magnum upgrade.

That is not exactly the same amp. I have the JD1000RC. Both the manufacturer and a well respected member of this forum told me it really isn't a preamp. It's more of a gain circuit in front of the power stage. Not much different from putting a volume pot in front of an amp input. And last... it's the same noise if I plug a CD player into the amp with no preamp.

 

This is my guess. Please note I really do appreciate the advice from everyone. It's not ignored. But understand I have received lots of conflicting advice from people I respect. With that said, I purchased the new preamp because I was going to anyway. I wanted to eliminate the variable that the problem had something to do with my mic cart loading.. now that variable is eliminated and with money I was going to spend anyway. I tried this first just to see if "maybe" as some suggested the issue was in the cart loading.

Now as to the repair. I paid $800. If I send it in for repair, that's $160 round trip shipping and at minimum $300 in repairs.... that "MAYBE" fixes my problem. So I'll have $1300 in it. The used street price seems to be between $800 to $1800... so I am just trying to educate my self completely before I do anything. I'm just weighing the pros and cons.

I could sell it as is explaing what's happening and hope for $600 and move on... or fix it and gamble that I'll be happy.

 

Might be.. but with my solid state amps it's dead quiet. So I'm just not sure...

 

If I just sell the Jolida as is and take some loss... I'd go back to solid state for a bit and invest in tube again down the road. Many have suggested rogue. Nothing against the product.. I bought their preamp, but I won't buy a Rogue amp. I know it's silly, my buddies both have rogue amps that sound great, but that the very reason I want something different. VTL, Cary, Antique Sound Labs, Manley... there are actually many over 100WPC amps that show up used on the market.

For what it's worth I spoke with someone who has a Jolida JD1000RC connected to some mid priced Wilson audio speakers and loves it....

 

If it is evidently a problem with the amp, you could eliminate the extra cost of shipping by finding a competent repair shop in your local area. Not sure what current rates are- usually, they will charge you a minimum rate to open it up and give it a look and estimate for repair. That may be the cheapest course of action to solve the problem.
The real difficulty in troubleshooting remotely is that there are so many variables and when you aren't hands-on, it becomes a guessing game. I took an old piece to a local tech the other day- guy was amazing- had all kinds of great test gear, but he spotted the immediate issue within seconds of opening the chassis. The trick, of course, is finding the right local tech. The guy I used in Austin is very old school, and only works on tube gear at this point. I think you said your unit is out of warranty anyway, and if so, the tech could still get parts or whatever from the manufacturer if they aren't something "off the shelf."

 

I did try rolling the power amp to 3/4 and use the Rogue preamp to see if it made a difference. Same. I'll try half way. I doubt I'll get to 80db'd with the power amp lower than 3/4 though.

With the Rogue 3/4 up and the amp 3/4 up I was like 77-78 db.

 

If I still lived in Ohio I would have my choice of several great guys. Here in Florida (Orlando) I don't know anyone I trust. I've taken my vintage guitar amps to a guy I'm starting to trust... but he said he has never worked on home audio before...

 

Just based on a 30 second Net search, there is a shop in Winter Springs? near Orlando that specializes in older tube hi-fi and the original owner had 45 years of experience- turned the shop over to his tech. I certainly can't vouch for them personally, but if they will do a minimal look see and estimate for little money--and perhaps call them first to ask if they are familiar with your amp-- there would seem to be little downside.

 

Would you mind sharing what shop? I called a few to find someone to recap a Carver amp and many listed were out of business.

 

No problem: Fine Tuned Audio - Home
Like I said, I did this with a fast Net search. Probably worth chatting with them- get a sense. When I needed someone here (since I'm new to Austin, at least on a permanent basis), I made a few calls before I settled on the guy I chose. You can get a sense of the attitude and approach from the initial call as well as asking about the shop's familiarity with your amp, what they charge for a preliminary look and estimate, etc. You might also talk to the manufacturer if you go this route, and explain that you want to minimize shipping costs and hazards---(shipping stuff is always scary in my book) so you don't alienate the manufacturer. If the thing is out of warranty, they may still insist that it be repaired by the factory or use an authorized repair center- but that also raises the question whether the manufacturer has somebody near you that they trust- not bad to find that out either. I don't know enough about your gear to suggest anything more....

 

Well that was a lot of good and helpful suggestions. I'll make some calls.

 

I'm taking it to Fine Tuned Audio. I called two other places and got about the same replies. Fine tuned is probably as close as any of them.

 

Small update..

I took and left the amp for the tech to look at. Might be a couple weeks.. he speculated that its a power supply transistor. He also thinks the "hiss" is due to the amps design being ultra sensitive to the 12ax7's. He thinks since they drive four EL34's each that it will take super quiet tubes to be used.

No opinion on any of that. Just hope he improves it.

On a side note, I've noticed on the interwebs a number of owner provided pictures of my model amp with those funny little life preserver foam rings around each tube. I wonder if the noise is oscillation. I wonder if others experienced this and fixed it by reducing the oscillation.. or maybe I'm desperate to guess at anything.

 

Another update: Picked up amp.
The local amp tech I talked to did some testing. The amp only pulled 50 watts before it trips and goes into standby. He tested all the caps and sees nothing wrong, although he says the seller knew about this problem because someone tried to fix it befor. He says all the caps have been upgraded and all the sockets have been replaced. Upon further investigation he has pretty much drawn the conclusion that it is the logic chips. He recommend just getting an entire board and replacing instead of just the chips.

He tinkered with it some and by lowering the bias was able to get it to consistently pull 70 watts before the logic chips go to standby. He also says that any frequency below 30hz pretty much take it to standby.

I called Jolida.. yet again. This time I spoke with someone else (not Jared). I explained all that has happened and the person I spoke with said he was unsure if they had boards for these older style amps. He said he'd check and call me back. I'm waiting to see what he finds. If he can get me a board I'll buy and swap myself if it's affordable. I'm not going to throw a whole lot of money at this amp. If the board is not available I will try to find new chips that are the same and see if replacing them helps.

I'm open minded at this point. Whoever I spoke with was patient and willing to listen. It will be interesting to see if Jolida will help in way of customer service.

I hold companies like Emotiva, Outlaw, Oppo, SVS, Soundsmith, Rogue and others in high regard. If you have a problem, even a problem with old gear, they do all they can and more to care for their product and the investment in a long term customer. I didn't buy the Jolida new, but if they take care of me I certainly would buy new if I'm in the market.

 

They do have a board! I have to send them pics so that they get the right one. Through the years there are more than one board version! Awesome.

 

....And not so awesome. Now they are recanting. Now all of a sudden the price they gave over the phone twice is wrong. now I cant even get a price other than "expensive"
They tell me now that they see a discolorization in a connection from a picture I emailed them. I cant for the life of me see any discoloration.

They say they dont know whats wrong without looking at it. Shipping would be at minimum $160. the bill would likely be $300-500. They suggest its a connection. Ive cleaned and made sure all connections are tight.

I'm at the point where I give up, lesson learned. Its a used amp that I have $1,100 in with tubes.

Lesson 1 - I'm done with Jolida and the new name Black Diamond they are about to come out with... like forever.
Lesson 2 - Paper weights are expensive.
Lesson 3 - Florida sucks for finding anyone willing to work on tube gear.
Lesson 4 - Sometimes its better to pay out the butt for new versus used.

Very discouraging.

 

Anyone see a discolored connector?

 

There was a guy that was mentioned on the forum before that I think lives in Winter Park area.

 

Sorry to hear that there was no simple solution.
I get the frustration. Sometimes it is easier to walk away (at least for a while) just because the whole thing makes you angry/irritated.
So, here are a couple questions:
1. how old is the amp such that the manufacturer can no longer supply boards?
2. You said earlier that you would try to replace the chips as an alternative to swapping out boards? Is that viable?
3. New v Used- I think it depends on the gear, how it's built and the company. I know nothing one way or another about the manufacturer- in every case where I've owned tube gear, from Audio Research to McI to Lamm to other pieces, there was always an answer or work-around. Some of the gear is now very old- the McI is from the mid-60s, the one remaining piece of ARC that I still own I bought new in 1974, so it is an antique.
4. Perhaps the older gear doesn't rely so much on chips, more discrete parts that are point to point wired.
5. Not to defend tubes v. SS, but a chip problem could occur in either.
6. What does the chip--assuming that it is, in fact, the problem- actually do- protection circuit?
7. Is there a work around for that?
8. Is Jared, who you said you spoke to originally, a founder or high level person at the company? If so, is it worth talking to him, not in an arch or nasty way, but just to lay out the facts. I know you don't have a warranty, and you've now spent money on a local tech- probably a few hundred bucks there?
Don't have any easy solution for you. I've had old equipment that I've put to the side over the years and then had refurbished, updated, fresh tubes, etc. It's never cheap so I only do that when I know I'm going to use the piece.
I don't know enough about your amp to advise on any Frankensteining. I'll bet there are do it yourself types who could pull that think apart and cobble together another amp from spares and odd parts. Sort of like the junk robot ship in Star Wars. Don't laugh--some of those recherché tube amps made by the Jeffrey Jackson crowd are little more than breadboard circuits they've cobbled together at first; then, they put them in cast bronze case work, with unobtanium tubes and charge a pretty good fee for something that is probably little different than a circuit from the WWII era.
Sorry I can't be any more help. I guess my checklist is just a reality 'check' on whether you should give up on this one.

 

That certainly does suck.

A couple more observations that might be helpful at some point....

Point to point wiring is perfered to the pcb board because repairs are easier to make. It is my opinion that when you get into 100watt tube amps, the heat they produce wears out those boards at a faster rate.

A tube amp that produces as much power as yours generally costs more than $5,000. If any company can bring one to the market for less, they are taking some kind of shortcut. That short cut that may not compromise sound quality but reliability.

Big power and tubes don't go great together. It can happen but it's not cheap or easy. Perhaps the most difficult path to follow in this hobby.

 

I believe the amp is about 9 years old. They told me $100 for a new board. I agreed so they said send us a picture so we get you the right one. Then the story changed to that board is VERY EXPENSIVE. How much? EXPENSIVE. So are we talking $100, $200? EXPENSIVE. then they proceed to tell me it's a connector. It's not.

 

You shouldn't be angry at Jolida, after all you said this amp had been messed with by a previous owner.
Their opinions at this point are only based on photos whereas real troubleshooting should be done on the bench.
Pretty tough to make a judgement on discolored connector from the photos, at least for me.

IMO: The onus should lie with the original seller for failure to disclose true condition of amp.
You should have been informed that the unit had a problem and that repairs had previously been attempted (possibly with non-original parts).

 

Definitely not a tube issue! I am an all tube guy with tube Mc. My system is dead silent in between tracks. I have 91db efficiency, hard to drive Martin Logan electrostats and only 40 watts of tube power... Ofcourse it is Mc MC240 tube power so HIGHLY under rated on the power side.... but still. My friends cannot believe the output and dynamics I get from only 40 watts!

 

Ohm... 40 watts for a 91db speaker is about perfect. A 40 watt per channel amp is what should be mated to ML speakers. I'm running a 3 ohm load with 84db sensitive speakers.

 

I have the exact same speakers as you in a super modest all tube system and it doesn't have any hiss or power issues. If you are interested, this is the amp I have, which isn't made any more I don't believe. They probably didn't sell enough to make it worth while.
Audio Electronics Hercules EL34 Vacuum Tube Stereo Amplifier Cary's new leader in the crowded EL34 field. Review By A. Colin Flood

The amp is only 30 watts as shown and it gets pretty damn loud without much twisting of the knob. However, the presentation I get with this amp/speaker combo is what I'm after, not shear volume. It's very 3 dimensional and the soundstage is massive. I play manly bass heavy hip-hop, Reggae electronica and bop style jazz and I'm very happy with the result. Being a Black guy and a bassist, if the bass ain't happening, I'm not happy. So you know if it works for me, it works lol.

The preamp is an ancient Audible Illusions Modulus 2-D. My system isn't dead quiet, but it's not noticeable. It has more of a hiss when cold than when hot. Edit: now that I think about it, the little hiss I do have is probably because I installed larger power tubes in the amp. The stock ones didn't do it for me. I'd forgotten about that.

Anyway, I say all this to state, depending on your room you don't need 800 SS watts or 100 tube watts to make these speakers sing. My room is around 12x19 with 12ft ceilings, I think. But honestly I think it sounds more natural from the top of the stairs which is about 35 ft. from the speakers.

So, I don't think it's a problem of inefficient speakers although I grant there are more efficient ones out there. These Alon IV's, I'd never get rid of based on the illusion of efficiency. I'd say your amp is just broken. Also don't lift the needle with your stereo cranked. Transients like that are bad for any system.