Ultimate HQCD (UHQCD) - new CD format, King Crimson on UHQCD and more

Why to bother with the comments, if you've never heard any of the UHQ CDs?

 

Thank you for your brief, but informative comments. It gives us an idea about SQ and that's what we need.

As I see, each title sounds at the different level:
Something like that (?):

Charles Mingus East Coasting + 2 - Best
Herbie Nichols Trio Love. Gloom. Cash. Love - Very Good
Duke Ellington Duke Ellington Presents... - Good

 

This thread aims to help people to find out is it worth to pay extra for UHQ releases.
So far, as I see it: The better remastering was done, the more it benefits from UHQ. Just a preprint of an old stuff often doesn't make sense.
We have to concentrate on New Remasters, which also are not always good:

(from the another thread)
Radiohead OK Computer UHQCD (Digipak)

Review

Disc 1:
First three tracks: "Airbags", "Paranoid Android", "Subterranean Homesick Alien" track #5 "Let Down" and two last ones "Lucky" and "The Tourist" sounded quiet the same. Sound was very open and airy with good separation and deep soundstage. The bass was very well presented. However, all of those "goodies" offset by low dynamics, bad brightness in vocal and overall clarity of the sound did suffer, especially when I cranked the volume. I would say good, but not very good. I re-listened them today - firmly Good.

Tracks #6 "Karma Police" and 10 "No Surprises" jumped over the border of the "Good" and "Very Good" category with less brightness.

Track #4 "Exit Music" track was a standout track. It started with life-like sound: 3-demantional, clear and ambient, placing me right in a front seat. For the first 3 min I experienced Natural Surround Sound. I started walking across the room - any place was a "sweet spot". Acoustic guitar and vocal were so damn here. I don't know is it reverb or what, but it was exceptional sound, touching and penetrating to the core. It's a short song, I started it over again, adding a bit of volume - it went more than in the other tracks, but not so far. I was about to declare: "Outstanding!", but soon brightness in vocal appeared toward to the end, pushing me back to reality. But it's "Very Good" for sure.

Track #8 "Electioneering" came directly from the Loudness War zone with abrasiveness in sound - average.
Track # 9 "Climbing Up the Walls" was a tad better, bordering the Good section with a bit clearer sound.
Tracks #11 "Lucky" and 12 "The Tourist", as I said in the very beginning, sounded good.

Overall, though sound varied, it was good sounding disc. But...
Was it worth to pay premium for UHQ limited release?
I planned to buy Reg. version to compare, but sound didn't meet my expectations - if would be a little more dynamics, more clarity, I should do that. Without comparison, it's hard to give some recommendations.
I re-listened it again today, enjoying it more, especially in the better sounding tracks, catching more details. It feels like, UHQ added some liquidity, but need to be compared to say for sure. (I don't have old CD either). It sounded very natural - it's a pleasure to listen to it again after all these years.

CD2:
Second disc have some nice tracks, but sonic-wise it's a letdown against first disc with less open sound and narrower soundstage. And though some tracks could go higher in crank-ability, overall it's an Average/Good category disc.

Probably, it doesn't worth to pay extra in this case...

P.S.
The cover is very nice, designed for Mini LP style, but was cut off a little (in the last moment) to fit into the Digipak format. Comes in two plastic outer sleeves and square sticker in between of them. (Booklet with lyrics).

 

Not exactly how I operate, I'd say East Coasting is the best sounding of the three, there's one edition of the Ellington that sounds a bit better, but both it and the Nichols sound excellent all things considered.

 

I may have had that vision at the concert. The UHQCD is really nice, but didn't produce those same results.

 

Result depends mostly on the Recording/Mastering quality.

You are watching the old movie on 4K OLED flat screen, and you can say: 4K OLED TV is nice, but didn't produce those results.
The same can be said about SACD, if it was done upon bad, compassed mastering. The only difference is that this is an old and trusted technology, and no one will blame it.

But what I see: In the case of the new and great King Crimson 'Live in Toronto' - UHQ makes it worth to spend more money, while in the Pat Metheny Offramp case (based on the old mastering), it's not.

 

Correction:

Charles Mingus East Coasting + 2 - Best
Herbie Nichols Trio Love. Gloom. Cash. Love - Very Good
Duke Ellington Duke Ellington Presents... - Very Good

 

UHQCD is IMO nothing more than an opportunity to beat a dead digital horse in an attempt to market these discs as "just like SACD's" only without the SACD format and obtain less restrictive licensing rights just like HDCD (Hardly Does Crap Dude.)

 

Speaking of SACD, Sony did not give up on FORS Master Sound series (Digibook).

Sony HK FORS Master Sound UHQCD series

Aug. 04, 2017

Kenny G Breathless
Jeniffer Warnes The Hunter
Air Supply Greatest Hits
Itzhak Perlman Cinema Serenade

I'm going to buy Kenny G to compare to my Sony HK SACD, which sounds very good. I think it would be the same mastering.
Let see if it will sound like SACD.

 

Whatever. I'm not really comfortable with rating things. It's not objective, it's subjective.

 

Personally after hearing three Coltrane Impulse titles and three Bethlehem titles, I think there is something to the format that is beneficial. In the case of the Bethlehem these are new masterings, which is a good thing, improved from the previous Solid Records releases of the titles I've heard for the most part, even if it's a slight improvement. If people want to buy these titles (I do, some of them), it's not a crime.

 

Finally, Universal coming with a new recording (by the BlueNote label) in UHQ, which eliminates any remastering issue.
I'm going to do comparison test with a reg. disc.

Oct. 27, 2017

Nora Jones Day Breaks 2 UHQCD (Limited Deluxe Ed.)

"Deluxe edition of "Day Breaks" release from Norah Jones additionally includes live tracks on disc 2. Disc 1 includes 12 original album tracks. Disc 2 includes nine live tracks taken from a concert held in October 2016 in New York. Features UHQCD format." [$28.49]
(translation)
Day Breaks (Deluxe Edition) [UHQCD] [Limited Release] / Norah Jones
Deluxe Edition which added valuable LIVE sound source to Norah Jones' latest album "Day Breaks" is released! This deluxe edition is a 2 CD set, Disc 1 includes "Day Break" 12 tracks of albums included. On Disc 2, 9 new songs of "Live Break" album release memorial live performed at Loreto Theater in New York's scene · center in October 2016 are newly added. This includes five songs from the album "Day Breaks" such as "Flip Side" and "Peace", as well as live sound sources of popular songs such as "Do not Know Why" and "Sunrise" It is recorded. Band members include Nora, Chris Thomas (b), Brian Blade (ds), Pete Lem (Hammond B-3 organ), Tariona "tank" Ball, Angelica "Jerry" Joseph participated in back vocals.



P.S.
20 more Jazz titles on the way... Stay tuned.

 

Independent label King Records has plenty UHQ Classical releases. Now they announced 20 Jazz titles in new series named CTI+RVG Ultimate Remastering Series. They claime extremely well done remastering by Rudy Van Gelder (RVG) in 2009, which now will benefit from UHQ limited pressing.

If somebody has experience with 2009 release, please comment on it.

CTI+RVG Ultimate Remastering Series

Nov. 17, 2017

Airto Fingers
Patty Austin End of A Rainbow
George Benson In Concert - Carnegie Hall
Ron Carter All Blues
Ron Carter Spanish Blu
Deodato Deodato2
Deodato Prelude
Art Farmer and Jim Hall Big Blues
Fuse One Fuse
Bill Evans Monteux II
Austrid Gilberto Gilberto with Turrentine
Jim Hall Concierto
Freddie Hubbard Red Clay
Milt Jackson Sunflower
Antonio Carlos Jobim Stone Flower
Hubert Laws The Rite of Spring
Hubert Laws The Chicago Theme
Lalo Schifrin Towering Toccato
Nina Simone Baltimore
Stanley Turrentine Sugar

"[CTI+RVG Ultimate Remastering Series] Reissue remastered by Rudy Van Gelder. Originally released in 2009. Special-priced reissue with UHQCD format. This series features the albums with the following product numbers: KICJ-2541 through KICJ-2560." [$13.44]
(translation)
Concierto [UHQCD] / Jim Hall
[CTI + RVG Ultimate Remastering Series] Rudy Van Gelder himself left behind while being missed last year re-releases valuable sound source released in 2009, re-mastering himself! 20 immortal name board titles are revived more vividly with high quality UHQCD! New price 1,500 yen that is affordable! Popular work that recorded one of the best sellers of jazz and album history. Here is the essence of CTI jazz! The 21st century latest remaster board by Producer Creed Taylor and jazz sound synonyms, Van Gelder.

 

Not opened yet.

 

There's little or no point in new formats etc if what's on them still is brick walled and compressed.

 

I was thinking yesterday that redundant formats actually do make sense IF they lead to better mastering. Your point is 100% true, my point is somewhat of a reach.

 

There's always hope.

 

UHQCD vs. SACD

Kenny G Breathless Sony HK FORS Master Sound UHQCD (#0184) vs. Sony HK Hybrid SACD (#0992)

I conducted comparison test: this SACD vs. reg. CD sometime ago (posted at Hong Kong SACD thread):

Kenny G Breathless HK Sony Hybrid SACD vs. 1992 Reg. Red Book CD

To describe the sound quality of this SACD in one word, I would say: Smooth.
Yes, the sound was clear and smooth through entire spectrum, especially in the trebles. Cymbals were very natural, so was Kenny's soprano sax in the top register, shining through entire album. Kenny made it sound differently on each track. Remarkably, when he switched to the tenor sax on the Track #6 'End of the Night', it had such a velvet timbre...

To describe the sound quality of this SACD in one word, I would say: Smooth.
Yes, the sound was crisp and smooth across the entire spectrum, especially in trebles. The cymbals were very natural, so the soprano saxophone in the upper register, shining throughout the album. Kenny did it differently on each track. But at the time when he was on the tenor saxophone on Track No. 6 "The End of the Night", he had such a velvet timbre... great Master!

The Track #7 'Alone' begins with acoustic guitar, bass and percussion. This less than one minute interlude strikes... I can felt the air between the instruments, every string is separate. (There was nothing like this on the original disc, speaking ahead). Bass was fine. Perhaps it was not such a quick bass of my best SHM-SACD, and not such a deep and ambient bass of my best hybrid SACD, but it was well represented bass, suitable for the Smooth Jazz recording.

Another my favorite: Track #11 'Sister Rose'. Kenny put a lot of emotions in this song... you could feel it better with sound like this - very touching. There is no sense to analyze each song here. It's very even album, sounding like one song. ... I still like the best tracks and moments here and they were appearing to me now with much more details, you couldn't find on 1992 disc.

My other favorite: Track number 11 "Sister Rose". Kenny put a lot of emotion into this song ... you could feel better with a sound like this - very touching. There is no point in analyzing every song. It's a very even album, sounding like one song. ... I still like the best tracks and moments here, and they appeared to me with much more details that you could not find on the 1992 CD

When I put my it on, I was surprised how good this 16-bit mastering was. I have to admit, I have not listened to this CD for many, many years, and now it sounded very good, especially, when I switched to 512Hz upsampling rate. Nevertheless, RB CD lost to SACD in almost all departments.

Highs... it seems that someone cut them off a bit in the very top of the spectrum, while the bass was almost the same or even slightly deeper in some places.
The old disc had a good dynamic. I pretty much cranked the volume - an excellent result ... but the new disc went even higher (about 5 dB) without distortion. And it won a little in the clarity of the sound.

In the sound presentation there was no contest in the depth of the soundstage and separation.
I tried to find some downsides or weakness in the sound of SACD... believe me or not, there was none.
Kenny G Breathless went to the "Best" category in my List of the Best HK SACD.





Comparing this SACD to a new UHQCD version... Both discs were very close (bass, dynamics, soundstage, separation - all the same and very, very good), but SACD won anyway. It sounded warmer and more ambient and, the most important, smoother in the top of the spectrum, especially when I cranked the volume, not on a big margin, but noticeable (that soprano sax, I mentioned before, it sounded clearer).

So, I put Kenny G Breathless Sony HK FORS Master Sound UHQCD in the "Best" section, next to SACD version.


P.S.

There is some logo on the front cover of UHQCD: FORS Master Sound.
On the back it states: FORS Master Sound processing by Keiko Ueda at the MTC Mastering Office, Japan.

What is it? Please read next post.

 

Wow it is commitment spending enough time listening to Kenny G to do that write up.

 

FORS Master Sound: Superior Crystal Sound

I went through their site (in Japanese):
FORS | 株式会社キュー・テック

In my understanding Japanese company Q-Tec, created technology named Super High-Quality Blu-ray Disc Master Process "FORS" system to improve video and audio performance of Blu-ray disc in 2007 and started to use it two years later:

"The FORS mastering service has started in July 2009.
Even if you change the hardware, the original source does not change. It is important for the disc media to incorporate the audio/video in a quality which is faithful and exact to the original that the producers have intended. FORS system can make it come true."

The point was to eliminate data degradation during a signal transmission.

"System Configurations
FORS Sound Processor: High-quality transmission of the original digital signal
FORS High Definition Master Clock: Reference signals of high accuracy
Audio/Video Signal Cable of the upgraded specification and quality
FORS High Definition Storage: Upgrades the quality of files
High-quality Authoring/Encode System specially designed for FORS

Features
Pure and smooth sound without any noise in the high notes which sounds as if it was wide-range
Robust auditory lateralization and fine sound which enables higher resolution
Stable and stress-free sound well suited even for prolonged listening
Less noisy video with high resolution and sense of depth"

Now they use only audio part of the system for improvement CD SQ by processing data, correcting the time errors and eliminating distortions appearing during the transmission digital signal.

"Q-TEC high-quality / high-quality brand "FORS"
FORS is a collective term for high image quality and high sound quality technology established by Q-TEC's expert know-how. In the package / software creation process, it has been verified that the sound quality of products largely depends on data loss and signal degradation which occur to a great extent. Q-Tech focused on this phenomenon and developed "FORS" as a system that minimizes data loss and deterioration during work."



In the liner notes they said: "FORS Master Sound is a master processing using FORS Super High-Quality Mastering Process System developed by Q-Tec, Inc. in Japan. FORS system meaning "Faithful Original Signal" improves the distorted digital signal by transmission to near-ideal digital signal so that original master sound can be faithfully maintained for CD manufacturing production."


This picture shows 3 waves of Digital Signal: Ideal, Distorted by transmission and Improved digital sound by using FORS technology.

Software and Hardware (FORS Processor, Master Clock and FORS cables) were created.



They do many media services. Improvement of CD sound quality is only one of them.






Important to note:

"In the FORS system, signal processing doesn't use for changing the sound quality of the master at all, but to correct the difference between the original signal generated on the process, back to the quality of the master."

I think, that's all they wanted to tell.

Q-Tec's motto is: Post-production for next generation.
And looks to me they succeeded.

 

So, how does this "FORS-ed" CD sound? To answer I have to compare the same mastering with FORS processing and without it. I did not see regular CD with FORS system (they says "mastering", like JVC is saying "K2HD mastering"), but only printed on UHQ.
Since it gives double effect, I can only comment on the combined effect UHQ + FORS vs. SACD version.

HK UHQCD Jacintha Best of Jacintha FORS Master Sound (#0625) Limited Ed. vs. 2008 Hybrid SACD

Jazz singer "Jacintha recorded her first album for Groove Note (Here's To Ben) in 1998. Her latest and sixth release, Jacintha Goes To Hollywood was released in mid-2007 and marks ten years with the Groove Note label, which we figured was a good enough excuse to release this first ever collection of the best performances from all her albums. Tracks include Danny Boy, The Look Of Love, Autumn Leaves, Boulevard of Broken Dreams, Something Cool, Light My Fire, O Ganso and many other great sounding tracks. Almost 75 minutes of non-stop Jacintha."

UHQCD is Limited Numbered Ed. (1000 copies), Made in Japan.











SACD info states:
Copyright 2008 Grove Note Records (is owned by Analogue Archive Pte. Ltd. Singapore)
Manufactured by Quality Music and Entertainment under the License from Analogue Archive.
Made in Germany.

In the case of Kenny G, where both discs had Japan very Limited pressing, SACD slightly outperformed UHQCD in the high-frequency sector and overall smoother sound.
In the case of Jacintha, where the SACD was pressed 9 years ago and was not as limited as 1000 copies, the UHQCD jumped a little above the SACD in clarity of sound.

First of all, we are talking about excellent sounding discs with open, airy, and well balanced sound; with equally deep soundstage, good dynamics and bass performance. I said: equally... From the very beginning it was very hard to recognize the difference - so close they sounded. Even that slight brightness in vocals on some songs (that pushed them to the border of "Very Good" category) was on the both discs.

I tried both CDs again and again ... and finally came to the conclusion that UHQ sounds better (clearer and a bit more natural), but I was not sure - maybe it's because I knew what's what. I asked my wife to take a blind test... From the very beginning she was a kind of confused, but very soon she focused on the sound and pointed without hesitation to the UHQ as a clearer sound. I think this is due to the better Japanese very limited pressing.

Then I compared UHQCD to the CD layer and UHQ won by a wide margin.

Conclusion:
UHQCD with FORS Master Sound is good alternative to SACD, if SACD is not available. Otherwise stick to SACD.

 

P.S.

Interesting to note:
Inside of Digibook I met such an interesting info:
"According to many tests and experiment, color pigments are always affecting the Quality of the disc. Therefore, this UHCD is intentionally printed with minimum information on the outer surface of the disc."







Here is picture of 'La Spagna' in UHQCD is the very first title made in UHQCD by a label outside Asia!



I'll talk about more.

 

While posting my reviews and pictures I came across the audionirvana forum related to our topic (one picture of La Spagna disc I took from there).

I want to thank our new member, Andymodern, for comparison test he conducted at the Munich High-End Show, also for the comment he posted at that forum in May and especially for the bravery to post this comment at another thread here at SH forum in the middle of the SOS (Snack Oil Syndrome) people's Bacchanalia.

I decided to re-post the most interesting moments from audionirvana forum here (with my remarks in square braces):



- "I demonstrated the difference between these 2 formats: UHQCD and SHM-CD in the High End Show Munich. The result is overwhelming. The audiences were surprised by the sonic sound of UHQCD." -- Andymodern (May, 2016)

- What were the major differences you heard between the two formats?

- "The difference is huge! UHQCD provided wider sound stage, more space and better separation of instruments. Also it was much cleaner at the background. The stereo image of the violin was much focused. The body of violin was much in detail. Most important, the sound of violin was much sensational!"

[Andymodern, you demonstrated difference in the sound between Platinum SHM (which is a way better than reg. SHM, though) and UHQCD with FORS Master Sound processing, but you counted all benefits in a favor of UHQ - that is incorrect conclusion. Since you reported a big difference, I can assume that FORS processing added a lot in the SQ. (In my own comparison test: July London pure SHM vs. UHQ without FORS "mastering", the difference was obvious, but not huge).]

- Thanks for sharing that. I still haven't opened my UHQCD (Jacintha's Best of). What player was being used? I have a low end Denon Universal player and wonder if I will hear any difference? -- Allenh

- "CH Precision D1 player was used. The idea is that if it is a good recording, no matter what kind of system we are using it will sound good. If it is a bad recording, a high end system can't change it to be better one. UHQCD is just like a "good recording". Since the UHQCD technology can physically reproduce the pits and lands of metal stamper perfectly on UHQCD, UHQCD can now provide master sound of the master source. So it will work from low end to high end system."

- "Very nice. Let me try later today. I don't have regular RBCD to compare to, but I think I have a hybrid SACD version and will compare to the CD layer on that disc."

- "Looking forward to hearing the result."

- "Ok, I played the CD and SACD layers of this SACD, Track 6 (A Man and a Woman) vs. the UHQCD version, same track.
I did not have time to compare the entire album, track by track. I hope to do that next weekend..





Let me get to the punchline: UHQCD wins hands down against both the CD and SACD layers. I think you guys know I like Jacintha a lot. After playing the well mastered Groove Note LPs, the CD layer was difficult to listen to. The SACD smoother but still had glare. The UHQCD was just smoother, more refined, more continuous than both RBCD and SACD layers. Sustain of notes were more natural and less discrete. There was more texture to Jacintha's voice, more like the LP I listen to so often. I did not get a sense of increased soundstage width or depth, just better separation of instruments and vocals, as if the noise floor dropped on the recording. I would love my entire CD collection to sound like this!

I had an audiophile friend of mine here on Friday to share some tunes. I wish I did this A/B exercise then just to get a second opinion. I hope to A/B the rest of the album next weekend. I also want to rip the UHQCD and the CD layer and compare them through my streamer and see if I still hear the same difference. But this quick test was very promising. I was beginning to buy more SACDs in the hope of better sound on the road. Maybe I will buy more UHQCDs instead now.

Definitely worth a try IMO, especially if you have a predominately digital collection." -- Allenh

- "Absolutely fascinating Allen! Goes to what we've been saying that there's more life left in CDs than we gave them credit for. And maybe you don't need the Trinity DAC to get there either.
What was the retail on the UHQCD?
Would be fascinating to hear it through the Trinity though or a UHQCD/SACD. Or have Bruce run the CD vs. UHQCD like he did with the Crystal disc.
Maybe I'll get one or two to listen to also." -- Myles B. Astor, PhD, Administrator (Senior Editor, Positive-Feedback.com)

- "That was exactly my initial thought: Wow, I wonder what this would sound like w the Trinity DAC!
The sound is what I think SACD would sound like: smoother and more refined than RBCD. I was surprised that I preferred the UHQCD over the SACD layer. I picked up 3 more UHQCDs tonight: 2 traditional Chinese instrumentals and the Faust/Carmen Suites (Lsc 2449). Really looking forward to the last one. Not cheap at $40-$50 per disc.

- "Received this note today from Fabio Camorani who has done some excellent reissues on the AudioNautes label including most recently the Bis recording La Spagna on both LP and UHQCD disc.

Hi Myles, I read on audionirvana that you should try La Spagna UHQCD vs SACD/CD. What Allen wrote on the comparison of Jacintha is what I heard and that's why I chose the UHQCD for La Spagna and not Gold CD anymore. Yes, I did it from the master tapes directly, it took many hours of setting but let me add this: the UHQCD is far better than the CD Gold mastered from the console!" -- Myles B. Astor, PhD



- "Years ago thanks to David Chesky, I had a chance to play with CDs made from Zeonex plus Al or Au or normal polycarbonate plus Al or Au. (I bet I still have them in storage too.) Clearly material made a difference then and should make a bigger difference today especially with improvements in mastering." -- Myles B. Astor, PhD

[As you can see on the picture La Spagna was not "re-enforced" with FORS Master Sound processing like Hong Kong CD Jacintha was, and probably wouldn't stand against SACD strongly.
Yes, this FORS post-mastering definitely adds a lot to CD sound quality... we have to take it into the account].

 

Interesting. The only time I've been able to compare UHQCD against SACD is with Pat Metheny Group - Offramp where the SACD won hands down. Having said that the SACD was a different (& newer) master to the UHQCD.

 

I dedicated this commitment to you, Rfreeman, as a longest lasting member of this thread (from day one).