Upgrading a Debut III - parts or the whole TT?

So I'm thinking about adding an acrylic platter and new cart or stylus to my Debut III (non-Carbon). The table is about 6 years old and hasn't had regular play because of a couple moves, but it is time to at least replace the stylus, so I thought I might upgrade as the surface noise and IGD is getting to me.

But I've read a couple threads now saying I'd be nuts to drop $300 to upgrade a Debut III and should instead get a better table. I could probably only sell mine for $150-$200, considering it needs a new stylus. That gives me $500 to start from, and I could maybe convince my wife that an extra $200 would be worthwhile... But is it?

Here are my options I'm considering to upgrade:

• Just adding an OM-20 stylus and calling it done. $200
• Adding the stylus and Acryl-It platter. $330
• Swapping out the cart for a Denon-110 and getting the Acryl-It platter: $430

I don't consider replacing the stylus for the same one to be an option since the surface noise is somewhat unbearable through my NAD Viso HP50s.

So should I just be looking at a new TT instead, and if so, what in the $700-800 range should I be looking at? I'm not a 'tweaker', and would really just like to get this done and enjoy my collection. This is my 'heavy listening' table. I have a JVC automatic table that is for casual house listening that will probably need a new cart or stylus soon, so I have to be somewhat budget-conscious.

Thoughts or experiences from folks out there??

 

AT440MLa, my friend. Or Shure M97xE with Jico SAS. Anything else under $200 won't see off a 320 kbps mp3 for distortion. Turntable upgrade can come later (I wouldn't spend on the Debut as the motor (vibrations) is the weak point).

Welcome to the forums.

 

I was looking at the AT440MLa based on some other posts I've read, and that was where I started to think about what others were saying about 'don't pay to upgrade a Debut'. Have you done that upgrade?

Thanks for the welcome!

 

At150MLX better than a 440?

 

No, sorry, I never had a Debut (though I saw a Carbon for nearly half-price last summer sale). All the online user reports about potential motor hum have made me apprehensive and I'm still happy with my old Sansui. The stylus is where it's at though.

 

On original purchase, I upgraded the stock cartridge to Grado Black for short $$. Since then I bought a cork mat and the Speed Box, though the latter was done to ease a speed switch to/from 33/45.

 

I had a Debut III.
I tried the Ortofon OM20 stylus (and 30 on it).

I came to the conclusion that money was better spent upgrading than tweaking. I upgraded to a 2Xperience and have no regrets whatsoever.

 

It's a good deck (I had a Carbon) but I think it'd be a waste of time upgrading it. I opted to replace rather than upgrade and wouldn't have it any other way. My advice would be to grab a Rega RP3 with something like an Ortofon 2M blue and enjoy. Plus you can always upgrade the Rega later as well with subplatters, platters, feet, TT-PSU etc.

 

I agree with @Antares approach, but prefer the Shure idea over the AT - I think the slightly richer sound of the Shures lends itself to the task slightly better. For me, the most cost effective way is to find a Shure M75 or M91 (should be plentiful and cheap over there - cheaper than an M97 at least), and stick a SAS tip on it (they're $133) - the lot should come in @ less than the OM20 stylus.

That will cure all IGD (barring groove damaged records, and nothing will fix them), AND will improve things enough to allow you to :-
a) live with the debut much more happily,
b) live with the debut that much longer, which in turn
c) allows you to save up that much longer and get a better budget to upgrade the t/t by a more meaningful jump.

And then, when you eventually get that considerably better t/t :-
i) the jump will not be marginal, so you'll feel you haven't wasted money
ii) you'll already have the advanced SAS tipped Shure to put on it

@tim185 - yes the 150 is better than the 440 - but it's a lot of cart to put on a debut, which means the delay in upgrading the t/t will take @stodgers that much longer, and I strongly suspect the debut would no be able to resolve the differences between the 2 AT carts.

@deniall I'd agree with you too, except that getting the SAS tipped Shure would be an investment in improvement now, which could then be used on whatever better table @stodgers ends up with.

 

I also I agree with Antares and Thommo, upgrade the cart with either a AT440mla or Shure M97xe with Jico SAS first before giving up on the table.
In addition, I don't know what phono preamp you are running, but I highly recommend upgrading to the Hagerman Bugle 2 phono preamp in conjunction with the new cartridge.
That's what I would do in your shoes.

 

If you find a good used Systemdek II or II-X spend the money on that. Audio Note used it as the basis for their TT1, 2 and 3 decks and it's a cracking turntable. The square armboard cutout denotes a later model, the teardrop shape is an earlier one on the Systemdek.

Or, get a Technics 1200 series where the upgrade potential reaps greater rewards and you get a top notch drive motor.

 

Upgrade stylus and cartridge, the debut iii is good enough to show an improvement, also these quality components may easily be transferred to the next turntable

Just bear in mind there's no adjustment on the debut arm to allow for cartridges of different heights

 

Essex minds think alike, Colin

(Upminster here)

 

Wow. Some great and very thorough input here. I think I'm going to go with a new cart for now as @thommo suggests. I haven't priced out the option he suggests yet, but will do so.

I was listening last night to Paranoid and think that if I could just get past the surface noise, I'll be fine. Hope this does the trick!

Thanks!!!

 

I have a Debut III, it is about 5 years old. When I first bought it, I upgrade to Ortofon Blue. I was and am very satisfied with the choice of cartridge. Later I upgraded to the Acryl-It platter and the motor controller. I think the motor controller made the biggest difference. I brought the pro-ject one. If I was going to do it again, I would probably get the Music Hall version.

 

Upgrading a Debut III absolutely makes sense if you're on a budget and you do it over time. But if you're starting with $700, I'd consider a Rega RP1 w/performance pack.

This was my upgrade path for Debut III, done over time as I was able. Each brought a significant improvement.

Stock OM5e cartridge to 2M Red. If I were you, I'd go for the 2M Blue, which has a fine line stylus. Or spend less money now and get the Red, but replace the stylus down the road with the Blue stylus. The cartridge is the same.

Stock felt mat to Herbie's Way Excellent Mat. This will cure your static blues. I chose this option over the Acryl-It platter, because the Acryl-It has less mass than the stock platter, and I didn't want to move in that direction, for sake of speed stability.

Stock power supply to Speedbox S. This will give you an easy toggle b/t 33.3 and 45 rpm, improve speed stability and reduce motor hum. This upgrade is a no-brainer, especially if you can save money by finding it on sale or as an open box demo item.

 

Wow - $60 for a turntable mat? I see your point on speed stability, but is this really a good value purchase?

I was thinking about the Speedbox, but I really never listen to 45rpm (and in fact actively avoid purchasing it), and motor hum isn't something I've yet had trouble with. But who knows what a new stylus would reveal!

I have to do some more reading up about cartridge and stylus combinations. I see the reviews of the Red and Blue are both pretty positive, but I see a few in there saying the Red has no bass, which would be an automatic no for me (I play bass guitar, need to hear it!). And then on the Blue: "complex passages are confused and muddy". I listen to a lot of prog rock. So again, more research for me!!

Is LPgear the best site for the Jico styli?

 

You'll see if you do some more research on mats that $60 isn't really out of the ordinary. In my opinion, the Herbie's mat does offer benefits in addition to reducing static and is well worth the money. It has a recessed center, making room for labels and allowing records to lay flatter, which really makes a difference on the Debut III's undersized platter. It's made of an absorbent foam material, which helps prevent motor hum from transferring to the stylus. There are plenty of reviews of the Herbie's mat, so you don't have to take my word for it.

The Speedbox's main sonic benefit is in the speed stability that it provides. I would characterize it as an essential upgrade for the Debut III, but again, that's my opinion.

I hear plenty bass on my 2M Red, so I'm not sure where that reviewer was coming from. But it is known as being sibilant and it can produce some inner groove distortion, which is why my next upgrade to the cartridge will be putting a 2M Blue stylus on it.

I'm not familiar with LPgear or Jico styli.

 

IME avoid the Red if you want to avoid IGD.

 

Just a couple of things to add here:-

The 2M Blue is NOT a fine line stylus, it's a nude elliptical - on a par with the OM20. The Bronze is the fine line profile in the 2M line, the Black being a Shibata(?). Not saying the Blue's a bad elliptical, but it's not a fine line, and the OM20 tip would be easier for the OP. Both the AT440's Mla and the Jico SAS are more advanced microridge/microline profiles.

@stodgers - You can also go direct to Jico for the SAS tips (although there could be a delay, depending on what model you want). http://stylus.export-japan.com/ I've done it a few times and have never been disappointed. Good luck with it however you choose to proceed.

 

My mistake! Thank you.

 

Oh, one other tip for the OP. If you upgrade to a 2M cartridge, you will also need the heavier counterweight, which you can order from Needledoctor.com.

 

Stansted

 

Well, I skipped the 2M Blue and just went for a Jico Shibata stylus for my old OM5E cartridge. People have compared it favorably to the 2M Black, at almost 1/7 the price.

 

I think a nice cheap upgrade is to find somebody selling a carbon platter on ebay. I've bought 2 for a debut III users and they both said it was worth what they paid.
They can be found for around $30 if you're patient.
Then ditch the felt mat and get a cork mat. This would be another $15-40.
These are cheap upgrades that can be done seperately.