Van Morrison Rhino Remastered/Expanded Astral Weeks and His Band and the Street Choir

The frustrating thing is that Merenstein's description of the cut section was so vague that it could have described what we're hearing on this extended version (especially the improvised guitar/sax jamming and the sense that it has "nothing to do with anything").

One thing I've long wondered is to what extent the Astral Weeks concerts really did reflect Van's original intentions for the material (and indeed, the interpolation of long solos by the musicians does seem to be reflected in some of the cut material on the reissue) and to what extent they came about as a result of him simply re-listening to the original album and coming up with (slightly) different approaches. Kind of like Brian Wilson's Smile concerts were never supposed to be his recollection of what Smile was supposed to sound like, but were more like choices he and Darian made in 2003 after listening to the tapes again.

 

My whole point is that most people don't compare them as such(!). I'm not sure what you mean about "true fans", or the 'markers of true fandom' being Veedon Fleece (solid 70's Van imo) and No Guru, No Method, No Teacher (nothing special imo - simply an improvement on Sense of Wonder, coming out at a time when he had built his 80's cult status). I've certainly never said anything such. Surely the only real consensus is on Moondance being a great album? (though it's not in your top 5, I expect you do actually like it?) People can favour periods of his stuff I've noticed, but generally people respect his artistry. I pick stuff from all over, like you.

Of your personal top 5, Into The Music was always my personal fave, though I still don't find it a better album than Moondance. Then Tupelo Honey I think. Moondance has to come first imo - it's faultless. Of the post-70's albums, I like Beautiful Vision, Enlightenment, Too Long in Exile and I suppose Avalon Sunset specifically. And a few other's from 1980 onwards too. After Back on Top I didn't buy a Van album till the recent (rather mixed quality) Duets, which really intreagued me. So I haven't actually heard No Plan B yet, or the live redoing of Astral Weeks. It's the only (small) gap I have though. I did notice No Plan got some good reviews (no guarantee of course) - I've just not got around to getting it yet. Too much music to buy.

As I remember from my teenage years, Astral Weeks was the lie in bed and glump-out album. No question about it - we were music loving teens in the 80's and that's what it was. It certainly had that cache in the UK - it just wasn't a comparative thing. Some people only had that Van album, taped or otherwise. I happened to already own Moondance and Into the Music at that stage, and more and more of the others as time went on. Surely you remember being a teen btw? I'm not saying it's inclusive behaviour to that part of our life. Or that we can't compare albums! It just doesn't surprise me that this thread is hard to follow. The focus gets so intense on Astral Weeks that for some the whole discussion (and in effect thread) gets to be exclusively about that. So people need to specify what they are talking about!

 

I think I understand what you mean a little better now, but I still disagree. As I happens I did buy Astral Weeks as a teen (I was 18), but I bought Moondance that same week (and most of the 70s albums in the six or seven months that followed). I'm 31 now. I loved both then and still do, but the older I get the richer I find Astral Weeks (while I more or less feel the same way about Moondance today that I did originally), and I don't see why it's illegitimate to feel that way...

 

I never said it was illegitimate though did I? I pointed something out, but I didn't mean to suggest that the opposite is true or whatever.

Glad to hear you love Moondance too though. An appreciation (at very least) of the greatness of that album is the one 'constant' regarding Van in my opinion.

It did annoy me a bit when someone said we in the UK 'prefer' Astral Weeks to Moondance, partly I think because I find this forum a bit vulnerable to these kind of false memes. I want the good stuff to livc on and be heard. It's a poor argument too, as most people don't generally compare them. It's always a thing with me when a great album gets demoted in some way here (or sometimes even casually depreciated - that's when it really gets my goat!).

 

Would that be the 1884 or 1768 Warners or are both those cd's mastered the same and the 1884 has the expanded booklet? If not, I used to have the 1768 one, but no longer.
Just the 1884 one and this new remaster.

Re: Beside You studio chatter, I thought the reference about a single was either facetious or perhaps was referring to a conversation about another song? I will give that another listen. When listening for enjoyment and appreciation, I have edited out all the pre and post song chatter on any of the bonus tracks from both albums.

 

That is an interesting question and comment. I read the liner notes and credits and don't see any credits given for remixing? Agreed aboout Ballerina. The extra instrumental section especially so, and as I hear it, its a more orchestral mix.

 

I'll listen again, but I'm pretty sure they're talking about "Beside You" since it comes out of a discussion between Van and Fallon about how the song is going to be arranged (starting with the two guitars). You may well be right about Merenstein being facetious though! That's how I interpreted it the first time I heard it, anyway. I wonder if he gave up on the idea of the album producing any hits quite early in the production process.

Yes, the mix brings the orchestral overdubs more to the forefront and plays down Van's (rather out of tune) guitar.

 

Yes, I'm definitely not saying Merenstein was "wrong" in choosing to cut "Slim Slow Slider" the way he did. I was just agreeing with you that it's a very different ending for the album. Much more dark.

 

As far as I know the only previous versions of His Band and the Street Choir are the old Warners CD (ie with both numbers) and the more recent 2008 Japan remaster, which people seem to say is better than the old CD.

Has anyone compared this new 2015 His Band expanded edition on Rhino, to the 2008 Japanese remaster?

I've got the '1884' Warner CD and it has a 20 page lyrics booklet in it. I don't like the sound though. I've just found this from here;

His Band And The Street Choir U.S. Warner Bros. 1884-2
(matrix 1 1884-2 SRC-01 M12S7):
85.3
60.9
72.7
69
67.4
69.3
62.9
53
72.6
60.5
58.7
55.3

Perhaps someone could easily provide the same for the '1768'? Someone in the thread said his 'German' CD gave the same numbers. Given that my 1884 says "Made in USA", the German one is likely to be the 1768 I think.

 

I have the old US CD versions of both albums and the 2008 Japanese versions and the new versions of both albums. I never thought the old US versions sounded quite as bad as people complained about them over the years, but also didn't think they were super great sounding. I thought the Japanese 2008 versions sounded better in terms of resolution and EQ, but I think this was balanced out by the fact that they were somewhat loud and so kind of hard to listen to for long (can't quite remember, haven't listened to them in a while). I think the new versions of the albums are the best sounding of the CD versions that have come out.

I know you didn't ask about LP, but while we are at it, I will also say that the Rhino LPs of "Astral Weeks" and "His Band" that came out a few years ago sound great, maybe better than original US pressings, which I also have and compared to at the time. Another recent CD reissue which sounded very excellent to me was the Moondance deluxe edition - it had some kind of dropout in "Stoned Me" but overall sounds great, substantially better than prior reissues.

 

A long time ago I had an original Warners CD of HB&TSC which at that time I thought was dull sounding. I then sold it when I obtained the Japanese remaster which is a lot brighter. After a while I found I got bored with this disc.

A few years later I discovered this forum & after obtaining many original CDs educated my ears to appreciate CDs that weren't compressed or had their treble boosted.

I never obtained the original Warners CD of HB&TSC as I remembered it being dull sounding. However having been prompted to get one after comments made here, when I listen to it now it sounds very natural. If you think the original is too dull then you'll probably think the latest remaster is as well. In this case you may prefer the Japanese remaster of a few years back, but which I think is overly processed, slightly compressed & artificial sounding.

 

Figures from WG 7599-27188-2

foobar2000 1.3.8 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2015-11-25 21:34:19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: ? / ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -2.05 dB -17.93 dB 3:10 01-CD Track 01
DR13 -4.85 dB -22.61 dB 3:00 02-CD Track 02
DR14 -3.68 dB -20.48 dB 2:41 03-CD Track 03
DR13 -0.06 dB -20.37 dB 3:30 04-CD Track 04
DR12 -1.67 dB -18.30 dB 3:55 05-CD Track 05
DR15 -1.19 dB -25.12 dB 3:54 06-CD Track 06
DR12 -4.96 dB -19.36 dB 3:48 07-CD Track 07
DR14 -0.68 dB -23.88 dB 4:14 08-CD Track 08
DR14 -2.78 dB -22.35 dB 3:18 09-CD Track 09
DR13 -4.65 dB -19.17 dB 2:12 10-CD Track 10
DR13 -5.17 dB -21.03 dB 3:48 11-CD Track 11
DR12 -5.32 dB -21.03 dB 4:49 12-CD Track 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR13

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: PCM
================================================================================

 

It's not to do with this forum educating me on dynamic range (that happened years ago now!). I generally go with the warmer more dynamic sound - the Hoffman style of mastering, no less. But to me (and others too) the Warner 'His Band' is just a flat and dull-sounding CD. It's not really comparative, it's just what I feel when I hear it. It maybe that the Japanese (and to some degree this new deluxe) had little to work on and had to artificially enhance in some way.

The new mp3 track samples didn't wow me either (I can hear the same issue underneath), but I've ordered the new expanded CD now anyway. It could actually be a case where a little *careful* twiddling makes a difference. I've never been completely averse to all the techniques of engineers - sometimes they are simply needed.

 

What did you use to do this? I don't really know how to compare the older figures to yours (ie in terms of them being the same CD). If I can get hold the software I'll put my copy of the 1884 CD through it.

 

The original WB cd of HB&TSC sounds good to me. And it responds quite nicely to cranking up the volume. It's the only one of the original WB cd issues of the first 3 albums I like.

 

I would like to echo these comments. I have never for the life of me understood the love for the 2008 Japanese remasters here. The ones I've heard are noticeably bright and compressed.

I also am not personally hearing any evidence of noise reduction on these new ones, as someone early on in the thread claimed. Is anyone else?

 

I personally found it the worse of the three, or the three I own anyway. I've just put it on now and the volume has to be around 3 times the level of a typical modern CD for it to come through! It's definitely a 'quiet' CD that needs to be played quite loud to hear - though not a bad thing as such of course, I know. I'm still not at all impressed though. I just can't get his voice right and make rest of the music to sound comfortable. I find it quite uncomfortable in fact - very frustrating.

I've just compared the first 4 songs to the full Amazon mp3's of the new expanded edition (which came through immediately on their Autorip deal - I don't have the actual CD yet), and wow you have to play them loud too. I hear much better balance for me already though. So very promising for the CD.

I've always loved my 1990 The Best of Van Morrison (a classic compilation) - I'll compare its Domino to the new CD when it comes.

 

I used the Dynamic Range add on in Foobar 2000.

 

I actually have that one installed, so I'll do it in a bit. I'll finish the the new mp3 'His Band' set first - I'm actually enjoying it for the first time in years! It really is a great album.

 

No obvious NR that I can noticeably hear, fwiw. The album tracks do segue together often, unlike previous cd editions. Does the original lp do the same? That was me much earlier in the thread re NR who on first listen suggested that and retracted it on ny own. I listened more closely to it a second time that night on headphones and next day in a quiet room thru the home speakers. Other things I didn't like about the sound of it that I mentioned and feel exactly the same that I stilll don't like, as similarly noted by a few more listeners. I mentioned NR because it seemed to sound less noisy to me and yet the sound of the vocals as I was used to hearing sounded akin to as if sometimes being minimally to moderately recessed, or smeared, or blanketed. As a poor metaphor, maybe rather than vertically, the remaster is focused horizontally, I don't know. In the end, I see no reason not to buy the expanded issue remaster. I bought both expanded remasters first day and am glad I did, even if like some other listeners, I by and large like the earlier '1884' or previous cd release of HSBAC. Some listeners don't and prefer the remaster. To me, 'it's all good!' and I hope everyone who likes the album also finds their favorite sounding mastering of it! No complaints from me about the sound of the HSBAC bonus tracks! Just wish there could have been a few more of them! Many thanks for this expanded remaster.

 

Hey these are different results, aren't they?
--

Figures from Van Morrison His Band and the Street Choir 1884-2
Warner Brothers, Made in the USA

foobar2000 1.3.9 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2015-12-04 19:17:12

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: ? / ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR14 -1.37 dB -17.84 dB 3:09 01-CD Track 01
DR14 -4.31 dB -22.53 dB 3:00 02-CD Track 02
DR15 -2.77 dB -20.40 dB 2:41 03-CD Track 03
DR14 -3.22 dB -20.30 dB 3:30 04-CD Track 04
DR13 -3.42 dB -18.20 dB 3:55 05-CD Track 05
DR16 -3.18 dB -25.06 dB 3:54 06-CD Track 06
DR13 -4.03 dB -19.28 dB 3:48 07-CD Track 07
DR14 -5.51 dB -23.79 dB 4:14 08-CD Track 08
DR15 -2.78 dB -22.25 dB 3:18 09-CD Track 09
DR13 -4.36 dB -19.09 dB 2:12 10-CD Track 10
DR14 -4.62 dB -20.95 dB 3:48 11-CD Track 11
DR13 -5.14 dB -20.91 dB 4:49 12-CD Track 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 13
Official DR value: DR14

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: CDDA
================================================================================

Figures from Van Morrison His Band and the Street Choir 7599-27188-2
Warner Brothers, West German (taken from post above).

foobar2000 1.3.8 / Dynamic Range Meter 1.1.1
log date: 2015-11-25 21:34:19

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Analyzed: ? / ?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR13 -2.05 dB -17.93 dB 3:10 01-CD Track 01
DR13 -4.85 dB -22.61 dB 3:00 02-CD Track 02
DR14 -3.68 dB -20.48 dB 2:41 03-CD Track 03
DR13 -0.06 dB -20.37 dB 3:30 04-CD Track 04
DR12 -1.67 dB -18.30 dB 3:55 05-CD Track 05
DR15 -1.19 dB -25.12 dB 3:54 06-CD Track 06
DR12 -4.96 dB -19.36 dB 3:48 07-CD Track 07
DR14 -0.68 dB -23.88 dB 4:14 08-CD Track 08
DR14 -2.78 dB -22.35 dB 3:18 09-CD Track 09
DR13 -4.65 dB -19.17 dB 2:12 10-CD Track 10
DR13 -5.17 dB -21.03 dB 3:48 11-CD Track 11
DR12 -5.32 dB -21.03 dB 4:49 12-CD Track 12
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 12
Official DR value: DR13

Samplerate: 44100 Hz
Channels: 2
Bits per sample: 16
Bitrate: 1411 kbps
Codec: PCM
================================================================================

I realise that both of these have a 'high' average DR number (DR13 for the '7599-27188-2' and DR14 for the '1884-2' which I don't like!), but that only says so much as people know.

PS. If you are doing this using Foobar2000, you have to first install the DR add on (linked to from here). Then you highlight all the tracks on the CD and right click for the context menu. Click on 'Dynamic Range' then after waiting a few minutes you can right click the window to show the logged results, and copy and paste.

 

Very interesting. I for one had assumed there was only 1 mastering of this CD prior to the Japanese remaster. It'll be interesting when people say that they like or dislike the original CD that they state WHICH original CD they own/have heard. I've had a look on Discogs to see if any dates are associated with either of these masterings but there isn't anything.

 

The different results are probably due to slightly different index points. Several years ago we tried to determine if there were any mastering variations for the WB cd and everyone reported matching EAC peak levels (which is how we typically differentiate masterings around here rather than DR numbers).

 

So how do you analyse those around these parts then, eh? (Just so I know in future). I looked at the big Van album thread and didn't see any comparative data, but maybe I've missed the pertinent thread(?)

It's the stark difference of opinion that has peaked my interest here. I normally like the kind of CD some people are saying the old WB His Band is (ie as one single version). But unlike the mp3 of the new extended set, I really struggle to listen to it. It's not what normally happens for me here.

 

[QUOTE="PhilBorder, post: 13365249, member: 21089]
Merenstien mentioned he cut out the 'Slim Slo Slider' jam because it wasn't relevant, but the "Glory Be to Him" conclusion is strange and powerful and certainly would have slightly colored the perceptions of what preceded it.[/QUOTE]
You're probably right but damn that previously unreleased section just gives me chills. I'm not a particularly religious person but I'm always moved when Van does shout outs to his Creator