Vinyl Thickness - 180 gram vs *standard* vinyl

Title says it all...is there a general thickness difference between the two (say about 40 grams worth)?

While my tonearm allows for adjustment of VTA, it's not nearly as simple or accurate as say the VTA tower that comes with some of VPI's better arms.

So, I was thinking that perhaps a good alternative would be to get it optimized for 180 gram vinyl, then use a record mat (of the right thickness) in order to raise it for "standard" vinyl to get close to the 180 gram level. I'm not sure if others have done this, or if it even makes sense...just trying to figure out a less cumbersoem way of making such adjustments.

Does anyone else do this? I can measure myself tonight, but was hoping for some input on thickness difference as I would like to order one yet this afternoon.

Thanks!

 

My recommendation is to cool down and start listening to your records. Going down that winding road will just make you unhappy. I would bet big dollars on that no one could tell a difference on the VTA changing between a 140g to 180g record. Set the VTA for the records you use the most and enjoy

 

Go ahead an experiment to see if there is any audible difference adjusting the tonearm or using variable mats. I think in most cases there is not, or not enough to worry about. If most of your LP's are 180g, then do your setup for that and forget it. If you sweat the small stuff too much, vinyl becomes no fun. Just my $0.02.

 

I agree with this notion. I think my local hifi store set my up for 180 gram but I can't remember for sure. This would become way to tedious even if I could adjust on the fly as new vinyl can be 120, 150, 180 and 200 grams and many times it's not exactly that anyways. Also, some 70s/80s vinyl is less than 120 grams so how would you even set it up for those? To me the biggest difference in sound is the recordings and masterings.

 

If you do not have an easy VTA adjustment on your table then I would suggest either setting it for the thickness of the albums you play the majority of. If that is 180g, set it there.

 

Bingo. We have a winner right away with post #2.

I have a VPI Classic2 which allows for an on-the-fly tonearm height adjustment and while I do make that tweak, my best listening nights are with a couple of friends, more than a couple of mixed drinks, and we don't fart around with resetting the freakin' tonearm for every record. Everything sounds just right those nights.

In other words, in the years I owned turntables without easy VTA adjustments, I still enjoyed my music plenty, thank you.

 

Agreed to be honest I don't really play around with the on the fly VTA adjustment for different thicknesses of vinyl.

 

For your standard 9" arm VTA will not IMO exhibit any audible difference. I've tried mats of various thicknesses to accommodate 140/150/180/200g pressings with no effect. My playback consists of about 50/50 between standard and heavyweight and still use 2 mats, although I think it's pointless. It just makes me feel better and its a habit I got into.

Forget about it....just enjoy your music!

 

One turntable for 180g, one for 140g.

 

I take a practical approach. 90% of my records are "standard". I set my VTA with those in mind. For the 10% that are 180g, I figure that even if it's not ideal, well, that's fine. It's set properly for the majority of my collection.

 

I searched for this awhile ago trying to find out how to adjust the VTA based on thickness......I don't know if this is 100% accurate, and I don't remember where (it was a high end audio site however), but it said that in general, the thickness of a 200g record and a standard weight record is roughly 1 mm. The same site said that 1 360 degree spin of the VPI VTA wheel raises/lowers the tower 0.9 mm, so take that for what it's worth.

- Buck

 

Dianos is right. I have a VPI Classic 2 with VTA on the fly adjustment. I change it according the the thickness of the record. I had the tech who installed my cart give me 3 settings for stanard, 180 and 200. I have played 180 gram records at the standard setting by mistake before, I could not hear a difference. I don't have 'golden ears' either. Perhaps those that do could, but I can't.

 

Some cartridges are far more sensitive to VTA changes than others. When I was using a Lyra Titan i, you could hear the difference easily, and there was a sweet spot for each record. But, even with an arm that makes 'on fly the changes' easy, it's still a pain. I had repeatable marks for a range of different thicknesses. I switched to a different brand of cartridge some years ago (Airtight) and neither the original PC-1 nor the 'improved' Supreme exhibit anywhere near the degree of sensitivity to VTA settings, so it's pretty much dial it in on set-up and leave it alone. A similar thread came up recently on Audiogon, with Doug Deacon --the advocate of the Magic Eraser for stylus cleaning- voting positive on constant VTA changes, and Ralph from Atmasphere claiming that once you get down to it, the thickness of the record doesn't matter, it has to do with the angle of the cutting head, which is not predictable.
No harm in experimenting if you have an easy way to adjust, but I agree with the consensus- get it dialed in, and don't drive yourself mad. BTW, this gives me another opportunity to rant for a remote controlled adjustable arm height setting- when I used to adjust frequently by ear, i had to keep running back and forth between the turntable and the listening position. Not a user friendly way to do this.

 

I'd like to know why a 180 or 200g lp exists. Do the thicker lps sound better?

 

Thanks for all of your comments. Ideally I would need a 180 and 140 gram lp of the same recording to judge things...not sure how realistic that would be (same mastering and all).

I will have to think more about this.

 

In my experience, no, not necessarily. Classic Records claimed that their 200 gram records had a different profile than 180 gram pressings, but the complications of pressing thicker vinyl, at least at the beginning, led to some real quality control problems for them (something that I gather they or RTI got a handle on before Classic went out of business). Here's an old blog from Classic Records on the profile of conventional modern pressings v. 200 gram: http://www.classicrecords.com/blog/

I think some of the 'audiophile pressing on 180 gram virgin vinyl from the original master tapes' is hype-a 180 gram record doesn't, in itself, sound better, virgin vinyl- sure; 'from the original master tapes' doesn't tell you much either (including whether there were digital steps in the process). I have some flimsy records from the 70's that sound very good (I'm thinking here of a UK Ziggy and a standard issue Columbia Janis Ian from the States).

 

I think they sound better mainly because the heavier vinyl is also a quieter formulation, and the extra heft helps prevent warping. That said, just remember that the depth of a groove is only 35-40µm (micrometres) which is one-millionth of a meter or one-thousandth of a millimeter or 0.000039" (making the groove approx. 0.00156" deep). That holds true whether an Lp is pressed on Dynaflex or 200g vinyl. BTW, think of it like this: the groove on your records is shallower than the thickness of a sheet of paper which can range from 0.07 millimeters (0.0028 in) and 0.18 millimeters (0.0071 in) thick. Pretty astounding that we get such glorious sound from something like that, isn't it?

 

I think Ralph Karsten makes a valid point with respect to cutting head angle not being universal and varying from record to record. So as much as I believe there is a sweet spot to be found, it relates more to individual records than it does to settings for specific weights of vinyl. Which makes it incredibly difficult (not to mention very time consuming) to find the sweet spot on each record!

I also wonder if the "change VTA/SRA" for every record types are also adjusting VTF each time as well. After all, the VTF is going to change each time you adjust VTA/SRA as well . If they're not, they may well be hearing small changes in VTF as much as small changes in SRA.

As I said, I do believe there probably is a sweet spot for each record but to find it and adjust for it constantly would be the height of anal retentiveness and represent a herculean effort that would seem, at least to me, to suck much of the enjoyment out of listening to music.

So I'm also in the camp of optimizing setup for the majority of one's collection, whether that be setting up specifically for 140 gram, for example, if that is most of what you play, or dialing right down the middle if you play half 140 and half 180 if you want to make that compromise. Choose your poison and enjoy. Life is too short.

 

Outstanding question.

To me, thicker vinyl is a marketing ploy. Classic Records issued some titles in 140 and 180 gram versions. Quadrophenia and Tommy come to mind. I know there were other titles. Golden ears of the industry listened to both thicknesses of records and could hear no difference.

The world's thinnest records ever, RCA Dynaflex, actually sounded just fine. Dynaflex records were often noisy and flimsy beyond belief, but those were problems with the vinyl formulation and not the thickness of the records. One of my favorite titles, Jefferson Airplane's live record, Bless Its Pointed Little Head, was pressed in both Dynaflex and regular thickness versions. I've owned at least half a dozen, and maybe as many as ten, copies of that title trying to find a great sounding LP. All leave something to be desired in the deep bass. While I often heard different tones from various pressings, it was always a mastering issue. I never found the thicker records to be better sounding in general than the Dynaflex alternatives. They certainly weren't quieter.

"Thick must be better, right? Old records from the 1950s and early '60s were thick, right? Then if we want good records, they should be thick." I think that was the primary motivation when manufacturers started pressing thick records in the 1990s. Or maybe it was the primary motivation when people started wanting thick records at that time. It's hard to say as it is a chicken/egg issue. Which came first? But by now, it's the accepted standard and we've got 180 gram records.

Jackets nowadays are thicker, too. You get a remastered record, especially a double one, and the package is so heavy and beefy, it makes you think you're getting your money's worth for $30 to $50.

The cynic in me says that's why we have 180 gram records.

 

I second the observation about Dynaflex and the 70's featherweight Columbias. The problem with thinner vinyl is their tendency to warp. Not all of the Dynaflex are noisy, and they do sound just fine.

The marketing of them was a gimmick. RCA claimed a superior product resistant to warping, blah blah, all of it a lie.

In retrospect, the actual reason was manufacturing cost reduction, and lowered shipping weight and costs. Inflation had taken its toll on everything, from cars to everything made of plastic, the advent of the disposable era. Audio components at the mid priced level (from mid 70's to present) suffered similar manufacture cost reduction in the effort to not increase their retail prices. The flyers of these products boasted improved specs, a better product than last year's model, but typically they were not as robust, and made of cheaper components.

 

The Dynaflex I own isn't any noisier than the standard weight records in my collection.

 

I set my VTA to the recommended setting on my TT and forget about from that point on.

 

Sounds like my new iPad, compared to the iPad 2. Hey, we made it lighter for you. With a flimsier plastic, not leather cover. And the same price!

 

I forget where I read it but it was on this forum. A mastering engineer said that in terms of sound quality as well as general QC, slightly less than 180 grams is better, more like 140 grams. As for tweaky adjustments of the arm to compensate for these fractional differences—I consider a turntable set-up so sensitive to differences to VTA that differences in vinyl thickness are audible as to be functionally speaking a bug, not a feature. Set the tonearm for 150 gram LPs and forget it.

 

Bug, don't think so....