Vinyl Thickness - 180 gram vs *standard* vinyl

Well of course, you wouldn't, you've already invested in such a device. But if I had the money, I'd get an SME 30, a 12" SME arm and use a cartridge that isn't sensitive to changes of VTA of less than .1 mm. That's just too tweaky for my entertainment dollar. I do not have the time or inclination to tweak for every record, it would make me go Digital if I had to put up with that sort of nonsense.

 

Robin, the fact that you can hear the difference on a given set up doesn't make it tweaky. Or that you have the ability to really zero it in. Nothing against the big SME- I know Albert Porter loves his, using the same cartridge I am, plus several others. But, as I said earlier, I've found it to be more a function of cartridge sensitivity to these changes. And generally, once dialed in, I have little desire with my current cartridge, to readjust on a record by record basis.

 

I agree, it's the cartridges that are sensitive to vta changes, not the turntable.

 

I don't care what Fremer says, you would lose that bet. Some carts are very sensitive to VTA; some aren't. I can definitely hear the difference of a slight adjustment of my VTA.

 

That sounds about right. If I'm so inclined, Ive found that a slightly less than a quarter turn for every 25g change in weight dials it for me. I used playing cards in the slot below the wheel to do my calculation (and to re calibrate on occasion).

It takes me all of maybe 15 seconds to do this. It amuses me to no end when folks that often otherwise obsess over every little detail are suddenly in the "don't bother, just enjoy the music" camp...

 

With respect to your first point, I have no doubt this is correct. But this a variable you can't control unless you want to invest hours into optimizing VTA to (hopefully) mirror the SRA for every LP. But you're still likely to be closer to a happy medium if you adjust VTA for differing weight vinyl.

With regard to your second point, if I remember my geometry correctly, I believe you actually have the concern inversed. If you "accurately" adjust VTA for the relative thickness of each record, the VTA would remain constant for each record and thus the VTF remains constant.

The VTF will actually change from record to record if you DON'T adjust VTA for differing thickness records because VTF can't remain constant if VTA isn't constant.

So if you don't adjust VTA to reflect different thickness vinyl, there are two variables in play that, depending on your cart, can impact the listening experience.

 

You are absolutely right! I was a little too trigger happy with that post-should have thought more before I pulled the trigger .

There could still be minor changes in VTF following adjustment of VTA/SRA by ear with individual records as opposed to adjusting only for weight/thickness as the "ultimate" VTA/SRA would vary according to cutting angle from record to record but they would be very small under those circumstances.

 

Agree.

 

I just got one of those dual layer mats for my new RP6/2M bronze setup, which is not going yet, so I cant actually say I have used it.But isnt that the easy way? If im playing anything other than a 180g record, I whack the extra matt on.Too easy!
http://recordclean.com.au/blue-horizon-turntable-mat.html

 

I have just been given some vinyl 78s from the 50s
They are BBC FX discs and are superb pressings,everything about them is excellent,geometry,label and absolutely flat
They are one sided,the other has embossed BBC Crests on them
Probably cut by BBC Transcription unit and pressed at Hayes EMI
It can be done.

 

I concur that the 12" tonearm is best where possible over the finicky linear trackers. And my VTA is set for average records as that is 90% of my collection. Why have something too finicky to enjoy?

 

For those who really care about VTA and VTF with different thickness LPs, I like the idea of different thickness mats instead of using a one size fits all mat. I think it's better than futzing with TT setup each time one plays a different thickness disc.

BTW I think those ultra thin Dynaflex discs from the early 1970s did have one point in their favor. One could readily see that the vinyl looked cleaner and more virgin, thus quieter. I never had any problems with groove noise on clean Dynaflex. Maybe there were technical problems using dirty recycled vinyl for such a thin disc. Maybe that's the only reason "they" stopped making Dynaflex, so they could save more money by using recycled vinyl.

 

If you have a suspended chassis turntable like I do,and adjust to a minimal clearance between the lower edge of the plinth and the turntable top board,be careful putting on a 180gm record if you set that clearance using a "normal" weight record

 

I used to do exactly as the original OP suggested, ie set VTA for a 180/200g LP and use a second thinner mat for the rest. Most of the time I couldn't be bothered though and just enjoyed music without fretting

My main TT has had an adjustable micrometer arm for the past year or so - I found the best compromise setting and have left it there ever since. Yes there are audible differences but they are pretty small & life's too short to become OCD about this (setting azimuth, arc alignment, tracking force etc correctly with great precision once IS worth the effort however)

 

Just for the record the math and RIAA dimension standards says that a 180gm LP is 0.73mm thicker than standard vinyl. A 0.73mm height difference across a 10" tonearm results in a change in VTA of 0.16 degrees. Less than 1/20 of a degree. We ain't hearing the difference here.
Set your VTA for the majority of your collection and listen away in good conscience.

 

I have done some experimental fiddling around with VTA (without bothering to readjust tracking force) and I have found that very small changes (less tha 1mm) will affect the sound. I settled on a setting that sounded okay for a number of records that were of typical thickness. I did not set up for 180, 200 or 220 records because the vast majority of my records are of standard thickness. I don't bother to make changes for different records. The ideal VTA varies not only because of record thickness but because of the angle chosen by the engineers cutting the record so one would have to experiment with each record, somehow record the ideal setting and then adjust accordingly each time the record is played. This, of course, would only be valid for this one particular setup and one would have to start all over again if something is changed (like the cartridge). HOW CRAZY and obscessive can one be? To me, the only reason to do a record-by-record change is if I were transferring the music from the record to some other high-end medium, such as making a digital copy or a reel-to-reel copy, and I wanted to totally optimize the transfer.

The only way I might be tempted to change VTA is if I owned the ULTRA rare Air Tangent arm that allowed for on-the-fly VTA adjustment by remote control.

 

The different, if visible, is negligible. Play all different thicknesess with the same VTA. It makes no difference.

 

I’m thinking for me using different mats would work great. I recently started using a 4mm Herbie’s mat and I may get a thinner one for 180g records.


However I’m on the fence whether I even need it. For the first year and a half I had my VPI scout LE I left it like the dealer set it up and never touched the VTA or azimuth. Last year I started messing with those adjustments and used a test record to set the azimuth and found there seemed to be a sweet spot that was quite precise and without the Counter intuitive was hard to get without changing the VTF.


A couple months ago I got on the 92 deg band wagon and started painfully trying to determine if I had my AT-OC9ML/II set to 92deg and unlike the azimuth it was hard to tell which setting sounded better.


Then I got a DV-XX2MKII cartridge and set it up with the VPI jig that I had always used. With both cartridges there seemed a sweet spot with the azimuth and the VTA seemed to have a precise spot also, at least with the few records I was using to test it.


Then it was suggested I get a Mint LP Best protractor to more precisely align my cartridge to the cantilever not the cartridge body. Sure enough I was off in the 2nd null every bit of 4-5 mm in the over-hang as well as the cantilever being out of alignment.


So after precisely aligning the cantilever the zone is much bigger and as far as setting the VTA Yip at Mint LP had perhaps the best advise I read so far on setting the VTA.


G. VTA
For setting VTA, I suggest this method:
a. listen to a LP with bass - my reference is a Dire Straits - six blade life. But any LP of your like will do
b. lower the VTA by 0.2mm and listen again.
c. repeat this exercise until you are sure you have too much bass. sound becomes murky.
d. raise the VTA by 0.2mm and listen.
e. stop when you have come to a music picture when there is a good balance of bass and highs.
I totally agree with Kuzma:
"Beware of falling into the trap of accepting a too HIFI sound as opposed to a less bright , less spectacular, but more correct sound."


So using this method I started low and moved it up and once it sounded good I kept moving it up 2 complete rotations on the VTA wheel without any noticeable change in sound. So I stopped there.


So for now I am of the belief that having nailed the alignment the azimuth and VTA are less critical and the sweet spot became much bigger. So if this is true I may not notice any change in audio between 180g and normal records.

 

Exactly, this is how we do it at my house too. An adult beverage is the best tweak I've ever made on some nights.

I've never really thought too much about my VTA. It seems vinyl is for the obsessive types and I really don't want to get too caught up in that swamp land.

 

No, just the quality of the pressing and the mastering can make it sound better. I think it's more of a "luxury item" type of thing with thicker pressings. Most of the 180-200 gram pressings tend to come out better these days but not all.

It is a marketing thing but that doesn't mean that the thicker records can't be the best sounding version, because they can and are many times but that has more to do with the mastering.

What is the actual increase in manufacturing cost of standard versus 180 gram $1-$2?

 

I've just been setting up a VPI Aries Scout with an AT 440MLA from my last table—my first solo TT set-up, which I'm sure is a contributing factor to the case of the fiddles I've had; a friend of mine has always helped in the past—and getting the VTA right has been the fiddliest part. I've been a bit shocked at how significant its effects can be. I set it up first using some 180g modern represses I was very familiar with to sound test and got it all dialed in. Then one of the light-weight records I put on wouldn't even track! It kept skipping a few seconds into the first song. Once I lowered the VTA a bit and reset the VTF, everything tracked and sounded great...

S'good to see folks saying that carts are the more sensitive than tables, though. The Scout sounds amazing, but I was starting to fear it was landing me in tweaking purgatory ! I need a new cart anyway, as the 440mla has a shielding problem that makes it hum, so I'm going to try to find one less sensitive to VTA.

 

Just remember that Line-Contact styli are by their very nature, very fiddly. With all of my CD-4 quadraphonic capable cartridges, I take the time to get them set up properly as they all have Shibata or equivalent styli. That's the biggest reason I use a Technics SL-1200: I have several cartridges that I use and I prefer to use a tonearm with a universal type headshell that is removable. That way, all of the fiddly work has been done; I just swap in a different cartridge, re-balance the arm, set VTF and VTA (easily done on the Technics), and in less than 2 minutes I'm ready to go. BTW, I have the VTA settings for each cartridge written down. The Technics isn't in the same league as your VPI, but for quadraphonic listening it is just what I need and want, and it is gentle on my records. I have a Pro-Ject 2Xperience Classic in the living room that I really like. I bought it from the Needle Doctor, and they set it up for me (it has an AT OC-9 MKII MC cartridge.) They did a great job, it sounds fantastic, and there is no IGD. Congrats on the Aries Scout, it's a lovely table. I hope you enjoy it for many years to come.

 

Reviving this...

I'm going get a 1MM mat to try on standard thickness vinyl. I've switched to a different tonearm and phono stage since this post, and one thing I have noticed is that I seem to get better (fuller) bass and more tamed highs when using thicker (180g) vinyl than regular wax. I have noticed this to be true with all six recordings I have tried...all of them sound...well, better.

I'm hoping this extra 1MM in thickness will help do for the regular grade stuff what I am hearing with the thicker formulation by lowering the angle of the tonearm a bit as the cartridge sits in the grooves.

We will see...

 

My suggestion is to set all tonearm/cartridge adjustments as close to perfect as possible for the majority of the records you own. Then, for records that fall outside the norm, any fine tuning can be achieved by cracking open and drinking a cold beer.

 

I use a Goldmund Studio table with a linear tracking arm. It is a PITA to change the VTA, and the setup is very sensitive to record thickness changes because the tonearm is relatively short. I experimented successfully with a set of Ringmat spacers, and found that if I set the VTA on the turntable for a 180gram record, I could put a slate colored Ringmat spacer under a normal weight record and get the right VTA. The difference between 180 and 200 gram records was not very significant. I also found that the very thin green Ringmat spacer worked for some older vinyl that seemed thicker than normal, but not as thick as 180gram. Good luck!