VTA adjustment

I was looking at this photo and this question popped into my head, so I thought I'd ask the experts.

If I were to remove the rubber mat (approximately 4mm) on my TT would that have the same affect as raising the tonearm tail up - in this case. I ask because I've read where folks stated to get an average adjustment (if you will), they use a medium weighted record in their collection (see example below*) to adjust VTA. So, I was curious, thinking that if removing the mat would have the same affect, that instead of fiddling with adjustment screws, one could maybe use different mat sizes to produce the same results. So, one could, in essence, use different mat thickness for different weighted records to get the sound they are after.

*For example. They have 120, 180 and 200g records, so they use the 180 to make the adjustment.

Thanks for any insight.

 

It would lower the cartridge VTA at the end of the tonearm by the thickness of the mat which I suppose you could call tail up.

 

Sure, except the different mat thicknesses would probably all sound different, provided you could even get three different thickness mats of the same composition (though I guess you could use three of the same thin mats, and just stack them depending on what record you are playing). A lot of people don't like the sound of any mats, though. The whole thing seems like too much trouble to me, and I'm more the set and forget type, but some tonearms make it pretty easy to quickly set the VTA to predetermined levels

 

I had to buy the thinnest Rega mat to get the correct VTA on my Rega table.

 

Herbies offers several thickness from 2mm-7.2mm, so you can do what you describe. Honestly though, unless you are using a cartridge with a microline, line contact or shibata type stylus, playing with your 2M Blue VTA may not cause too much issue.

I make all my adjustments on my Delos with a 180g record, since most of what I have is that....playing 120g or 200g does not change the sound at all. also remember the VTF could change also, which to me is the more important issue.

 

Especially since most records aren't flat either

 

Says who?? All my rekkids be flat.......

 

Cool. Thanks everyone. Catcher, I have the Art9 coming and will be removing the Blue pretty soon. Also, I was told that my TT was designed to work without a mat and could be played directly on the acrylic, so I removed the mat for now to see how it goes. I figured that made lots of since, because the felt is pretty thin and therefore you are pretty much right on the acrylic.

But, it's good to night that if I chose to do this, it's workable. I am a set and forget it guy, so most likely, it will remain just a curiosity thing.

 

Of course, any thread that includes "VTA" is going to insight controversy and disagreement. There are no agreed upon opinions about anything having to do with VTA, just personal beliefs, that everyone seems to think THEY are correct about "owning". So what I am going to write is MY opinion, and NOBODY needs to agree. Please do not use my opinion as a platform to start an argument.

"If" sound changes as you experiment with VTA, this has nothing to do with thickness of a record. The difference in thickness of records is minuscule, compared to the changes in VTA that I talk about making. And, the sound changes you "may" hear with VTA (the angle of the cantilever) also has nothing to do with SRA (the angle of the stylus), except these angles both change by the same amount.

These sound changes that "some of us hear" when we experiment with VTA is caused by matching the motion of YOUR cartridge's cantilever to the motion of the original cutter head. Typically, you will need to change the height of the tonearm, or your mat thickness, by at least 1/2 mm, to hear a difference, sometimes as much as 2mm.

So it is not finding a record with average thickness that is important. It is finding a record (pressed from a master) that used an average cutting head cantilever angle and length that matters. I have a list of various record companys' statistics, regarding this, which I can share with anyone who cares. From this list, I can recommend some specific record labels that are close to an average.

 

Please. Labels would be great.

 

Can the arm be shimmed?

 

It would have the effect of raising the tail- in this case 4mm = ~ 1 degree of VTA assuming a 10" tonearm.
Howewver- adjusting for vinyl thickness is splitting hairs.
A 180gm record is only 0.73mm thicker than a standard issue vinyl.
A 0.73mm rise over a 10" tonearm = 0.16 degrees- 16 hundredths of one degree. not audible.

 

Thanks everyone for the insightful data.

 

From the data that I obtained (it is not my data), the combination of length and angle of the master record cutter makes an arc, so the sinusoidal waveform of the pressed signal is skewed into the shape of this arc, which varies in radius from record label to label. Right about in the middle, in other words average, were Warner, A&M, Arista, Flying Fish (the bluegrass label), and Performance Recordings (the audiophile label). Not far from that was TelArc and M&K. The most extreme were Columbia classical in one direction; but Columbia popular, RCA, Vanguard, and Nautilus in the extreme other direction.

So if the theory is correct, that matching the motion of the original cutting head is what we are trying to duplicate by adjusting our cartridges' VTA, then setting it by ear with one of these "average" records will be a good "set and forget" position.

I definitely "set and forget". But I find that it is worth my time to set VTA optimally in the first place, whenever I install a cartridge. Then, however non-average record labels sound from there, well, that is is just going to be "how they sound".

All of you skeptics and pundits, please don't complain. Just ignore me if you don't want to consider it.

 

ART9 is a nice cart, I almost bought one but they became unobtainium last year from LPGear, so I bought the Delos. Take super care on setup of the AT since it has that super fine stylus, azimuth is critical you get as close to perfect as you can as well as VTA. The magnets need to line up well to give you amazing sound, after 20hours of breakin if your jaw is not on the floor then something is off in your settings.

I have been running naked (no mat) on my mmf-7.1 for awhile now and really like it. For mats I have used the MH cork mat as well as a Herbies, running naked allows the screw on clamp to really make all the records flat, completely clamped to the acrylic platter. You run a mmf-9.1/3 so it does not have a screw on clamp as you have no sub platter, running that deck naked I would for sure use a clamp or weight. That acrylic platter is pretty slippery and you don't want your records sliding any.

 

I anxiously await it's arrival. Azimuth looks dead center from what I can see. I have the Michel clamp. I did notice it's slippery.

Thanks...

 

For many years I used a Goldmund Studio turntable with a T3F arm, which required about 20-30mins to make a VTA adjustment by raising or lowering the tonearm. It was a short linear tracking arm, so the VTA changed a lot due to changes in record thicknesses. I set the tone arm for 200 gram records, and had two vinyl spacers (like thin mats) that I used under normal weight and 180gram records to adjust the VTA.

I now have a VPI rig that allows me to change VTA far more easily.

 

So I was not far off with my thinking with respect to using mats to adjust VTA. I may do some experimenting with this.

 

Ringmat has spacers that specifically work with its mat in order to adjust VTA. Don't know the pricing:

Ringmat Developments - Ringmat Spacers

John K.

 

Disagree. Some carts are very sensitive to changes in VTA (and the corresponding change to VTF). I can hear the difference with my cart. So did our forum host IIRC.

 

I use a VPI mat on my Scoutmaster for 'normal' records, and take it off for thicker records. It's all good.

 

Agreed. I have an Ortofon Quintet Blue. Audible differences with VTA changes. And the bottom of the cartridge is completely flat front to rear. Combine that with a very short cantilever and it will be dragging on the record surface if it is more than just slightly 'tail down'.

 

Do you have any idea how infinitesimal 0.16 of a degree is? Half a degree up or down, now we can hear something different. Not 0.16 degree.

 

About .159999 more than infinitesimal actually. But regardless it's audible for some carts. Our host heard it and his ears are pretty good, no?

 

That's the brand that I used. The spacers will work without the Ringmat itself as long as you use a clamp (otherwise they can be slippery). IIRC, when the VTA on the arm was adjusted for a 200 gram record, I used a slate-colored mat under normal weight records and a green mat under 180 gram records.