Were the 5th Black Sabbath band members needed during the live shows?

Hi!

Guys, that's something I have been thinking for about 5 years, and it came back again... I was listening, quite intensively, to bootlegs and official lives of all Sabbath eras, strictly to hear the impact of Jezz Woodruffe, Geoff Nicholls, Scott Warren & Adam Wakeman. I got to say that, to me, it's in 99%... annoying. The tone of synthesizers mostly used by all of them is plastic and shallow. During - for example - Tony Martin era concerts or the Dehumanizer tour it's even hard to listen when the keys are near as present as the guitar, sometimes playing the riffs, and totally not fitting with the more dirty & aggressive sound of the other players.

When there's more of the 2nd guitar than the keys, it's for me also unconvincing, because the guitar parts are just louder which takes a lot of space, that... would be perfectly filled by the bass. The reference example is the live DVD from Radio City. There are 2 guitars while Tony is playing the riffs, and the 2nd guitar is gone when each solo starts, and I think the whole thing sounds more musical and varicoloured because of Geez harmonical/orchestral attitude.

So... why is it for? Just for Tony to feel more comfortable with that kind of background/support? But, on the other hand, why would he feel uncertain about He's playing? What's your opinion? Does it bother You as much as me? Or maybe You like it for some reason?

 

I think initially Nicholls was brought in to broaden the musical palate. I think as time went on two things happened: first, as original members left, the band's sound and direction became less focused. SEcond, as the band became less focused it began to reflect more of times they were recording in, in order to remain relevant/popular. During the 80s90s synths were hard to avoid. They mar many albums, particularly if a band became directionless.

 

Wasn't that the 80s? With the exception of Iron Maiden, Metal bands all had a keyboard player on tour. The keys always got buried in the mix if you were there. So, you mostly didn't care about the extra musicians.

 

Vinylontubes - one of many examples of keys in Sabbath that hasn't been buried in the mix: .
It really changes the whole thing, and as I wrote - for me, it's hard to listen...

 

I don't think Iron Maiden are/were an exception. I saw them live a year or so ago & there was most definitely keyboards being added played off stage.

 

Thanks for starting this thread, it is an interesting subject. During Sabbath's live shows, live albums and bootlegs, the 2nd guitar never really bothered me; the keyboards bothered me only sometimes, when they were too loud in the mix. I have a feeling that it was Tony Iommi who wanted the keyboard players to play along etc., and I am pretty sure it was mainly him who banned him from the stage. Personally I would have preferred them to either don't have a keyboard player altogether, or make him a full band member and encourage him to play his own parts. Playing keyboards in Black Sabbath must have been a very boring job most of the time.

 

I'm curious, were the keyboardists actually on the stage where they could be seen during Black Sabbath shows, or hidden?

When I saw Ozzy solo during the No Rest For The Wicked tour, you could hear keyboards all over the place...even on old Sabbath numbers that never had them to begin with.

However, the keyboardist was never on-stage, acknowledged during the show, or even mentioned in the tour book.

I was a keyboardist in a couple metal bands at the time, and it annoyed me a bit obviously. If you're concerned the fans won't like it and want them to think you're a 4-piece, then just go out as a 4-piece or be honest and at least stick him in the wings somewhere. In a sense, it struck me a little like how they later re-recorded Bob and Lee's parts on the first 2 albums.

Never got to see Sabbath though, so I'm curious how they handled it?

Mark

 

When I saw them last year, they had a 5th player hidden. It's needed at times when Tony solos and there's nothing underneath his solo but him. Kind of shrill with just one guitar.

 

I saw them in the mid-80s when Geoff Nicholls was there but I don't remember seeing him on stage.

 

Geoff Nicholls was only on stage during at least some part of the Seventh Star tour and he actually sang vocals at a few shows while Glenn mimed along before Ray Gillen was brought in.

I wish they would have given Geoff a more prominent role instrumentally on albums and on stage. I enjoy the keyboards on the Tony Martin albums in particular.

I don't think he was actually needed in a live context and Sabbath seemed to treat him like a second class citizen.

Read up on Sabbath history at black-sabbath.com

 

I think it's fairly well known that Michael Kenney has been both Steve Harris' bass tech and the Iron Maiden keyboard player on tour and occasionally in the studio for quite a long time. But he plays the keyboards backstage. Why? I don't know. Maybe because keyboards aren't required on every song?

 

Thanks! That's kinda what I wondered/feared.

Thinking back to that Ozzy show, I recall shaking my head in amusement overhearing some of the theories that people in the audience around me were discussing, trying to explain the extra sounds.

Some said Zakk's guitar must be plugged into a synthesizer that was repeating what he played. Others swore that you always heard a synth sound when he or the bassist hit their strings a certain way and they must be triggering some automated sequencer or something. And others noted that the synth parts were different from the guitar, and how it was amazing he could play both at the same time from one guitar. Funnily enough, one of them was the bassist in one of my bands and a good friend, and I thought surely he knew enough about keyboards to know what was/wasn't possible in the 80s.

Mark

 

I've always told people, artists, bands......if you and your band is lacking in direction, you should add more synths to your record. Even back in the 80s and 90s......crank up the snare drum and pile on the synths.

 

Thanks! Happy that I'm not alone ;-).

I fully agree.

Wakeman's role during 13 and The End tours, was a bit different. He was playing much more guitar (keys appeared in 4-5 songs like Snowblind or Dirty Woman), and it shows up not only under the solos, but mainly to pump up the riffs, which as I said in the first post I find also unconvincing, because the guitar parts are just louder which takes a lot of space, that would be perfectly filled by the bass.

Therefore a lot of music that Geez creates is in high % gone! I think it's a big defect because he's not playing only with the guitar & drums, but also a bit around and between them which combined with his jerking and bending strings style is more than worth to listen.

It was fully possible to experience - for example - on the first Heaven & Hell tour in 2007 because Scott Warren didn't play on keys a lot & didn’t touch the guitar at all, and that way Geezer's wide approach was easy to hear, and for me, it was also much more enjoyable to listen live than later on the DVD when Iommi add in the studio the second guitar and - willy-nilly - diminish Geez unique input.

But turn it all upside down, to show that it's not so black and white - I hate the mix of The End DVD where the bass is MUCH too loud .

 

I read on online article earlier this year on this subject. It was from LA Weekly in 2016. I don't know how to post links using my phone but typing "keyboard players hidden offstage" in google it should be the first article to come up. Black Sabbath and Ozzy are mentioned along with other bands.

 

Video is blocked in sweden! :-(

 

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