What to expect from really good or high end turntables?

Of course you can. You can increase it with shims and decrease it with mats.

 

Well you can with spacers or various aftermarket mods etc. But yeah comparisons even of this sort need to be controlled for all variables.

 

Yes, I believe its two 2mm shims, thats 4mm to increase SRA by 1 degree.

 

Interestingly, I believe that Roy Gandy hasn't ever believed that VTA has a significant affect on performance.

 

Well I have heard from other Rega owners, P3 and up that shims did not in fact change performance, at least for them. But again, 2 shims for 1 degree difference, Im not surprised.

Id love a talk with Gandy though, it seems like people either misinterpret what he says or hes delusional.

 

We don't have to agree or disagree. You hear what you hear, I hear what I hear. This is how it should be. I was not making a proclamation to be taken as gospel, but rather an observation of my own. It's all good.

 

If shims do not make a difference on Rega arms (...Mr Gandy) then how come adjusting VTA on-the-fly via the Audiomods V micrometer makes such a noticeable difference? It's a modified RB303 after all.

 

Here, the Pioneer definitely sounds better. - To my ears, of course.

 

Roy's comments were for Rega arms on Rega turntables back in the 80s; can't remember if it was for all cartridges, i.e. not unusually tall ones. I don't know his opinions now, and of course what was said just may have been misinterpreted.

 

Everything has already been said... but my experience going from a project to a McIntosh was lower noise, more vibrant and clear sound. Then I added a Soundsmith MIMC Star replacing an EVOIII and it was dramatic. So, that’s my experience fwiw.

 

what to expect-------RELIABILITY ! and descent sound.

sl-1200mkII (own three) all still work 2 are over 30 years old.

 

For several reasons. But they boil down to; it´s better not to compare this way than to compare.

 

Sorry, I wasn't being clear. On the Rega segment, the run-in groove is laden with hum. The Technics segment does not appear to have that hum.

 

come on. are people seriously doing A/B comparisons of turntable/tonearm/cartridge setups via Youtube? I don't even trust Youtube shootouts to compare differences in the sound of guitars, or guitar amps.

the other day on a discussion here, I read someone recommending the use of a stethoscope on turntable plinths to assess motor noise and rumble....THAT is a productive suggestion.

 

And you can adjust everything to get to the result you want to show easily...
If I were in a marketing department of one manufacturer, it would be an easy way to make believe that my table is better.

 

Let me add another item from a "high end" turntable must have list:
Low capacitance great sounding tonearm WIRING plus RCA outlet terminals so you can alter the capacitance at the table simply by changing Interconnects from low capacitance to high capacitance.
This is mandatory for anyone trying to get good sound out of their MM cartridge.
Some of the "comparisons" being done on YouTube do not list the total capacitance of each table so you know the tone will vary right there.

 

I dunno, a single run of wire from tonearm clips to phono pre, without an extra set of terminations and plugs, has advantages in terms of less signal loss. And don't forget each of those plugs can add as much capacitance as a foot of cable sometimes. My personal preference is for the fewest possible sockets and plugs and insertion points along the signal chain, especially with such a low level signal. Given the choice between a single run of wire from clips to RCAs, or a turntable with tonearm wires that terminate with a DIN or RCA out and need a second cable, I'd leaning towards single run. I don't think there's anything about having RCA outputs that mark a table as "high end."

 

So if you run trannies where do you plug them in?
If you get hum and need different shielding how do you do that?
How much signal loss do you know a good pair of Neutrik plugs adds to your line?
Those are my reasons.
Once you are locked in using a long pair of built in interconnects you are basically screwed if you need to change anything around.
On my rig sometimes I use ultra short low capacitance for AT carts and other times I use one long run for a direct feed and other times I use two sets with one running to a pair of trannies for a DL103r.
I can't imagine having a fixed Interconnect of fixed capacitance and to me the way you can hook up stuff is extremely important.
Do whatever works best for you, of course.

 

Any time you have an insertion point, you have voltage loss. it doesn't matter whether the plugs and sockets are "good" or "bad." There will be differences of course of resistance (most plugs are "bad" in that they're make for strength but not conductivity so they're brass with a coating), and of tightness of connection. But at every insertion point there will be loss regardless. Plus, in my experience, there's more difference in performance between tight and loose or clean and dirty plugs than there is difference between two different coaxial cables. In other words fewer plugs, fewer connection points of any sort to me reflect the choice I prefer vs. having more insertion points. As to Neutrik, the company makes a lot of different plugs in a variety of different lines. The company should publish a spec for the capacitance of each. I'm not so crazy about those spring action Neutrik RCAs.

If you want to use your phono cables as a sort of EQ with a higher inductance MM, that's fine. I'm using MC's at this point myself so capacitance isn't much of a factor in FR, but even with MM, I prefer lowest cap possible. If you get the resonant frequency of the LCR circuit formed by the cart/cable/phono termination, up high enough, and then damp the amplitude with the resistance, you can get the response flat up into that top octave. And flat through the top octave to me is always the goal. If I wanted to EQ a systems I'd rather use something I can more precisely and ably control, like a parametric EQ.

In any event, do what you like. But there's nothing wrong with a single cable from clip to plug, and in fact there are notable ways in which it's preferable.

 

Everything you said was true and in many cases I too try to minimize insertion loss.
Unfortunately many high end table makers don't attach low cap Interconnects which is why I prefer using my own low cap cables.
And if you move your table and it starts picking up hum you really will enjoy being able to kill it with a better shielded pair.

 

A re

Lowering distortion normally means a truer representation of the source recording.Although distortion generated through a mechanical turntable set-up or a tube amp can make the sound more pleasant in some cases..Albeit less accurate.

 

Yes a TT front end will add some percent 2nd harmonics and some freq modulations. If this is good or bad depends on what we think.

 

My RP 8 runs at a constant 33.4 Works for me..

 

Well, a poorly shielded cable is a poorly shielded cable, if some manufacturer is wiring their tonearms with poor shielding from arm to RCA, that's, that's a flaw, but even most cheap RCA are pretty substantially shielded.

I dunno if there's a typical recommended capacitance load for most MM's -- I presume the designers know what the load should be for flat response through the upper two octaves. But looking at a standard cheap cart, Shure recommends a 300 pF load for the M97xE, and that's a pretty high inductance cart of 650mH. Average coax cable capacitance is typically in the vicinity of 33 pF/ft, so with three feet of average capacitance cable and assuming an RCA plug adds another 33 pF or so of capacitance, the cable is still only giving you 132 pF of capacitance. If you have a 75 or 100 or even 150 pF capacitor at the input of the phono stage, you're still right in the ballpark of the designed load. Yeah, if you want to lower the capacitance, you're gonna need some uncommonly low cap cables. Like I see a 700 mH cart out there with a recommended load of 150-300 pF; that's a wide range and means you can probably tune the circuit's resonant frequency to as low as circa 10kHz or as high as 15 kHz, maybe that will make a substantial difference in air and HF character. I get why one would want some degree of capacitance loading flexibility with MM carts. And why one would want the lowest cap cable possible. I just also get why one would one to eliminate and entire set of plugs and sockets in the line particular given the signal levels of 5 mV or less.

 

Answer to A: There isn't. In general AT likes about 100pF TOTAL including ICs and input. Shures like 400pF total.
Answer to B: Bingo.
Answer to C: Not necessarily.
Look at the AT number and then the Shure number.
Shure does not recommend low cap cables but they are a must for some ATs and phono pre inputs to get low enough.

Anyway thanks for playing.
I guess it is just that your cable was perfect for you and that's all that matters to you.
I wish I was lucky like you.
But for guys that don't have all the luck it pays to be able to change cords.