Which way to jump on replacing digital sources and speakers?

I’ve now found myself able to fund new speakers and a new CD player, and I find myself at a decision point wherein some new perspectives might help.

My current set-up is

Rega Saturn CD player (10 years old and starting to die. Sometimes can’t get it together to play a track. It buzzes and whirrs in true Saturn style, then it moves onto the next track and buzzes and whirrs some more. It’s been suggested that the laser is now weak.)​

Thorens TD 166 Mk 6 turntable with RB250 arm and Goldring G1042 cartridge

Croft Micro 25 preamp

Croft Series 7 power amp tweaked by Glenn Croft to give 90W/channel

Monitor Audio GS60 speakers

Atlas Hyper 3.0 speaker cable

Atlas Navigator interconnects

(Last but not least) Rotel RCD965BX LE Discrete CD player (21 years old and in better health than the Rega Saturn but sometimes not as good with emotion and detail in denser recordings.)​

My first item to change is loudspeakers.

In hi fi shops I auditioned: -

Dynaudio Excite X38 floorstanders

Dynaudio Contour 20 stand-mounts

Proac SM100 stand-mounts

Russell K Red 120 floorstanders

Russell K Red 150 floorstanders​

What I then auditioned at home is: -

Dynaudio Contour 20 stand-mounts

Proac SM100 stand-mounts

Russell K Red 150 floorstanders​

What the audition has shown me is that my own MA GS60s are less musical than any of the speakers that I auditioned. They are also over-emphasised in the upper mid-range and treble and they therefore sound a little coarse by comparison. Shame, really, as they look brilliant. They play rock quite well, but classical can sound a bit hard and squashed in the mid-range.

The Dynaudios are lovely looking and lovely sounding loudspeakers, and they do classical and vocals very nicely. In the right room, including the hi fi dealer’s listening room, they also do bass well for stand-mounts and can dance and swing along very nicely to Mario Biondi singing “This Is What You Are”. At home, however, the bass is too clean, i.e. I can hear some really low bass in an understated way but there’s an under-emphasis above that point until we get into mid-range. Therefore dance and rock suffer a little bit, especially James Jamerson’s bass on Motown tracks. They’re also very hard to drive, and to get the best out of them I suspect I’d need to upgrade my amplification with loads more watts, which I don’t want to do at this time because the Croft kit is wonderful.

The Proac SM100s are more business-like in appearance (I like the look) and more efficient, and they have more “attitude”. They therefore do rock and dance better. They also do emotion brilliantly and they make me want to stray away from my audition CDs and just listen to stuff. Lower bass is still a bit lacking, however, because they’re small-ish stand-mounts. Also, on the end of mosfet amplifier output stages rather than valve output stages they can occasionally sound a bit coarse and shout-y in the mid-range. This is a result of less-than-ideal equipment matching, not a fundamental design flaw. On the end of the right gear they’ll sound wonderful.

The Russell K Red 150s are generally gorgeous, refined, detailed, with loads of but not excessive bass, superbly timed and extremely, extremely musical. Music just flows out of them. They also handle dynamics superbly and beautifully portray every aspect of “Uranus The Magician” from Holst’s Planets suite as performed by the Montreal Symphony Orchestra conducted by Charles Dutoit, including the quietest moments (harp and strings) and the loudest moment when the organ and deep brass kicks in and nearly blasts me out into the garden. Having said that, vocals occasionally sound slightly recessed to my ears. The emotion is there by the bucket-load but the “in the room” feeling is occasionally missing when it shouldn’t be.

So, is it the design of the speakers or the positioning of the speakers in my lounge, or am I now “hearing” my Rega Saturn CD player more clearly?

To check this out, I played some tracks through my old Rotel CD player as well and then compared. I’d always seen the Rotel as having overblown vocals, i.e. singers sounding larger than life. Now, however, they just sounded lifelike, and I could hear the vibrato in Dionne Warwick’s voice on tracks such as “Walk On By” far more clearly whilst she stood in front of me giving a personal performance. (Thank you to Bill Inglot for a wonderful remixing job, by the way.)

Then comparing Chris Rea’s vocals in “Road To Hell Part 1” through both CD players and on vinyl, I found that my vinyl source navigated a course somewhere in between the two CD players.

So I’m wondering whether or not to pull the trigger on the speakers (£4K, so not a trivial decision) and look for a complementary CD player and/or interconnect that will lead to good vocal reproduction.

And if I do look for a CD player, which must be programmable and have a separate input for the DAC, should I go for a one-box solution or a two-box transport and DAC solution? My budget on this is around £2K and I can’t spread my gear out into a second equipment rack.

My musical tastes are very wide, so I need a set-up that isn’t just good at one or two genres.

Do I pull the trigger and move forward from there? Are the Red 150s genuinely less strong with vocals? Dunno. It would be a shame if they were. Are there any other speakers that will look good, that I can place no more than 35 - 40 cm out from the wall etc. and that will do what I need.

If anyone can offer views, tips, advice etc. on auditioning, choices, CD player thoughts, caution versus go-for-it etc. etc. then that would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in advance, and many thanks for getting to the end of this post.

 

Bumpety bump.

 

Wish I had advice instead of a question. But how did he get 90 watts out of your amp?

 

Larger transformer and heat sink.

I was thinking about a new power amplifier because my Series 7 wasn't quite beefy enough for my liking.

I asked Glenn Croft "... is there a way to bump up the power of the Series 7 or are there any higher powered power amplifiers past or present that you know to have a useful synergy with the Micro 25 (and also a compatibe budget)?"

Glenn replied "The Series 7 can be uprated to 90 WPC with a bigger transformer and heatsink "

And after 0.00001 seconds of deciding it was a done deal.

The only noticeable change is a more authoritative sound with more weight. The essential characteristics remain unchanged.

Love it!

 

Both.

It doesn't sound like you're fully sold on any of the speakers you tested, so keep looking. If you were fully sold on the speakers you wouldn't be asking questions about the ancillary gear. You're spending too much money to be on the fence after a home audition.

I'd get the speakers sorted first, use whatever CD player keep working, and then take care of that later, maybe get a Rega Saturn R since you seem to favor them.

Your amps and cables are all top notch. Don't change a thing.

If you still have the Russell's you might spend a few hours going back and forth with your old speakers. Sometimes, we're just used to a certain sound. It doesn't actually mean there's anything wrong with the presentation from the new product. But, you're the final arbiter because it's your money and you need to be happy with your choice.

I use Harbeth M30.1s and like them, but don't know if you would. Mine sound good when I use the Croft Phono integrated which is about half as much power as yours.

So, no specific recommendation, except to take your time. You've already got good speakers so it's not like you're suffering over there.

 

dynaudio is it !

I passed up dynaudio for the energy RC-70's - the Energy had much better midrange, and bass, but the upper registers of the dynaudio was more clear, and gave a more depth feel.

get the dynaudios, they are some of the finest audio speakers one can buy, and so accurate

 

Are you only looking at new gear ? I would be looking at a CD player as a transport and get a really good DAC - this was one of my biggest upgrades, no matter how good the rest of your system is it will only be as good as your source. Unless you want to support your local dealer I wouldn't go new with speakers, personally I feel they have gone nowhere in outright sound quality terms over the past few decades. How big is your room ?

 

I highly rate Cyrus cd players. Superb sound and easy upgrade paths. Best sounding player for the money and good after sales support. I have had mine for a long time and still sounds and performs perfectly

 

AVI DM10 actives. Event Opal actives. Could also seek out some Dynaudio or Genelec actives too.

 

You said occasionally the Russell's didn't have the "you are there" in the vocals. That could mean they are just passing along what's in the recordings. I think paper cones are DOPE..ed

 

Many thanks.

From my auditions, the Excite X38s are efficient enough for me but I wasn't blown away when listening to them in the listening room. I found them slightly slow in the bass, which was to the detriment of dance music. That led to the Contour 20s described in more detail above. They are leaps and bounds ahead of the Excites. That's why I auditioned them at home. Beyond that it blows my budget.

In the end it comes down to personal preference and although the Contour 20s were lovely speakers they just weren't my lovely speakers.

 

Many thanks.

CD player / digital source is the next step on the journey, and a 2-box solution combined with ripping CDs to a server is definitely a valid option, along with something like the Rega Saturn R DAC. Racking restrictions, however, might ultimately constrain my choices.

My room is essentially made up of two rectangles. The lounge part, which faces front and has my speakers at the front is 13'4" long and 11'4" wide. The dining room part is 12'0" long and 9'7" wide.

There is a low-protrusion fireplace and chimney breast in the front part, which stops the speakers from being brought out too far. There's a very wide settee running down the other side wall, which also restricts speaker placement.

With the Red 150s in place right now, the rearmost corners of the speakers stand 17" from the front wall. The front wall is 22" high, above which there is a bow window which is almost full-width and full height and which is 25" deep.

The ceiling is 7'9".

The speakers are 6'6" apart, centre to centre. centre to the fire side wall is 22" and centre to the settee side wall is 36".

The "sweet spot" settee is positioned such that my ears are around 14' back in the room and roughly 11' from the centre point between the speakers.

The lounge part has two fabric covered settees and a coffee table plus other bits and pieces in it. The dining room part has a table and chairs plus cupboards, with large French doors at the rear.

Not exactly acoustically dead, but it's what I have.

The issue with used speakers is that home auditions are out of the question, and my last used purchase (my current speakers) have turned out to be wrong in the longer term.

 

Noted. Many thanks.

Review reading time, then.

 

Yeah. On re-instating my own speakers, the additional "mid-range" that I'm hearing is largely nose and throat stuff, i.e. noise, especially if I listen to old Frank Sinatra mono recordings on CD. The Red 150s don't give me that. Instead, as my wife said, "That's Frank."

From what I can tell, paper cones are extremely musical, and they show how relatively un-musical the CCAM drivers are on my GS60s.

And the "you are there" bit varies as I move my ears back and forth through areas of constructive and destructive inteference. This suggests that careful positioning might cure any shortfall.

 

If you get a chance to audition a Cyrus player, i am sure you will be smitten. The add on power supply is worth it, but get a SH one. The new ones are too pricey and IMO add nothing more than the older models. They look exactly the same.

 

sotosound, according to your posts, you need a new CD player. You want other gear.

It might be sensible to concentrate on finding a new CD player before getting anything else.

 

Valid point.

What I want to do, however, is to ensure that my new CD player sounds through with my new speakers.

My Rega Saturn sounds less harsh through the Red 150s than it does through the GS60s. I can still here it's character but the effect is far less pronounced.

If, however, I'd changed CD players first then I might have over-compensated for what the Saturn and GS60s do together to the sound and ended up with an over-warm CD player.

 

Only advice would be to veer clear of another Rega CDP.

 

Lol. They do have a strange reputation. My own has a dodgy operating system and for the last 10 years it's variously told me that there's no CD, that the disc is empty etc. It's also happily ingored commands like "STOP!"

In between it's played lots of music for me and it's only recently that I've viewed the sound as less-than-perfect, possibly mainly because of my speakers.

 

Thanks for all that info. Its so difficult to know where to go with HI-FI - so may variables and conflicting views. Its great you have listened to products and have used your judgement to narrow your choices. Room acoustics are a big factor - hard floors and not much absorbent furniture usually mean a hard sound in my experience. With that sort of money to spend you have to trust your own ears, take your time and do not get sucked into reviews and opinions, though we all have our own experience and recommendations. I would recommend experimenting with room treatments, even if its just absorbent panels. I was going to suggest some older speaker designs but your room might not be big enough, some older Tannoy's or Snells and the like though some of the newer ones are inside your budget - get to listen to Audionote E's for example and see what you think.

 

Many thanks.

Unfortunately AN-E speakers wouldn't really suit in the aesthetic sense; nor in the positioning sense. My local hi fi dealer is a great fan of them but already knows that these wouldn't suit me.

Me and the Red 150s are getting on quite well right now, but I still have a question mark regarding vocals and have now narrowed it down to male vocals. (Dusty Springfield sounded really good last night.)

I therefore find myself wondering again about whether or not this is the voicing of my Rega Saturn rather than the speakers.

And, in line with your earlier suggestion, that leads onto whether or not to get my Rega Saturn repaired with a software upgrade and a new laser and then use it as a "programmable" transport. (I like being able to programme sequences of tracks.)

With that in mind I could then audition a DAC in conjunction with the Red 150s and settle the question once and for all. Perhaps and AN DAC 0.1x. It shouldn't take long to get a view.

Bottom line, however, is "If in doubt then do nout." Too late is too late.

 

please audition the Cyrus cd player, i have a hunch it will suite your needs!!

 

Sorry, but I love my Croft kit.

 

Any specific model in mind?

 

If you dont want just a transport, the CDi sounds sublime. It will be my next model. i will either have my current model updated to the current spec or maybe look for a demo model