Will today's pro audio end up in future homes?

I completely agree - good response. Speakers designed to deliver 120 dB @ 100' don't translate well to small environments.

A rig that I have heard in a small space is d&b E Series. I have used the E6 for front fills or under balcony in larger systems & have used them with the e12 sub in small venues. As great as they are they still lack the sensitivity for high dynamic range listening in a small environment. There is definitely a huge difference between "sound reinforcement" and "sound reproduction".

We are definitely solving for a different set of variables in live performance / sound reinforcement.

I also absolutely love Tannoy's smaller "pro" speakers like the VX Series.

 

I want to say no. The trend seems to be going towards convenience over quality.

 

Right, at home I need something that's going to sound good, and dynamic and not lifeless, and sound coherent at 9 feet and, I dunno, 80 or 85 dB peaks, in a room where the sidewalls are, I dunno, 3, 4 feet from the speaker.

 

Not to mention that a lot of sound reinforcement speakers often require quite a bit of proprietary DSP.

 

Thanks...still working on a one-piece horn that will make the assembly of the MEH much easier (and cheaper).

Chris

 

I don't have any knowledge about pro audio brands and installation, but there are brands (like Yamaha, or Teac, for instance) that offers both home and pro audio equipment, and the pro audio components that can be used at home (cd players, amps and speakers) are always much cheaper than the mid and higher end home audio products by the same brand. So if people don't buy it today, even if it's cheaper, why to use it in their future homes? Or am I missing something?

 

Then you ought to visit Fort Lauderdale first. We have the world's most iconic Polynesian restaurant, The Mai-Kai, complete with tiki bar and tropical gardens. It is privately owned by the same family who started it back in 1956.


This is located directly on US1


This is the main dining room and show area. This is the REAL DEAL!

The tiki bar

This is one of the back dining rooms away from the show area. I usually eat here, if not in the gardens out side of the windows.

The outside gardens.

You might get a few ideas for your basement!

 

Nice!

 

Chances are with a lot of pro gear, you'll get quality but maybe at times at the expense of domestic friendly cosmetic finish. Then again, the same could be said of some traditional hifi designs too...!

 

Short story.

Last night, a friend of mine texts me at 11:05 PM: Sir Roger Moore - 007 (1927-2017)

I text him back, late night happy hour?

He pops in the back door of my office, several minutes later.

This is right when I was adding the Mai-Kai photos to the post.

We spoke about Roger for a few minutes. Then, I mentioned that a forum member commented that he was planning a tiki bar for his basement and I was posting some photos of the Mai-Kai for him.

Both of us are known to do some damage in the Molokai Bar, during Happy Hour at the Mai-Kai!



So off of the top of his head, my friend said, what they need is a pair of A7's down at the end of the bar.

It's official! Tiki bars and pro-sound do go together.

To the OP, I have been running a PrimaLuna Prologue Five, 36-WPC with KT88's, since last Friday, on the A7's.

My friend and I both agree. That this is the best sound that either of us has heard out of the A7's!

Referring to a full range, modern tube sound and not a vintage tube sound.

Earlier in the thread, as well as the OP's original post, with reference to pro-sound speakers in the home, size became an issue. It was rightly pointed out about large cabinets, that were designed to put out 135dB sounds and explaining, that these would not work in a home, for what are fairly obvious reasons.

But, we should keep in mind, that the larger pro-sound speakers were designed for much larger venues. While we would find pro-sound speakers in a Jazz club, we wouldn't see these HUGE pro-sound speakers in a small jazz club. We might see them at an outdoor Jazz festival.

It has everything to do with the size of the room.

You wouldn't reasonably expect to place Tannoy Westminster's and Klipschorn's in a small room and have expectations of good sound.

In smaller rooms, tower speakers are usually replaced with bookshelves.

The move today in many pro-sound applications, is towards smaller cabinets and more power. So often, there is less emphasis on SQ and more emphasis on lower cost and louder sound.

Go with some of the modern offerings like the Meyer Sound cabinets, shown in this thread and you can have quality modern pro-sound at home.

Here is a Meyer Sound X-10, designed as a control room monitor.


The photo caption lists these as No. 24 Meyer Sound X10. They are powered monitors that go for $51,120/pr.

Dress these up and your are using pro-sound speakers as part of your ultimate home entertainment system.


Molokai Bar with people in it. Note the slate floors. It is designed to look like the interior of a sailing ship. Windows have water running down them.

Back to pro-sound speakers. Realize what they are meant to be. Placing them in your home, is not going to turn them into tame little tower speakers.

They are going to do, what they were designed to do.

Going back into the 60's and 70's, most pro-sound speakers were two way speakers. In the later seventies, when Disco came in on the heels of Saturday Night Fever, companies like EAW designed newer PA cabinets, which included separate bass bins and additional super tweeters. So now, two way systems, became 4-way systems, to meet the demands of the extended ranges of Disco music.

Let's look at adapting an A7 for use in a home environment, we can't really make the bass cabinet smaller, without changing the character of the speaker. So, the speaker is always going to be large, either that is acceptable, or it is not.

To move on from there. Most all latter day PA systems use digital crossovers. We need to move to a quality passive analog crossover for home use.

The 511B horn of the A7-500 starts rolling off at 6KHz, so a JBL super tweeter is added, with its own crossover, kicking in at 6KHz.

The 828 bass cabinet on the A7, is known for strong, natural sounding bass. However, it was not designed for today's deep "sub" bass. It will only be effective at a -3dB to about 48Hz, so a large commercial sub is added into the mix. And, now we have a 4-way totally analog system.

An advantage to the large bass cabinet, is that you end up with a natural sounding very efficient speaker, at 103dB's.

This means, that while you can drive them with a large amplifier, you can also drive them with a small, high quality tube amplifier. My little Decware, Mini Torii is only 3.9-watts and can still drive the pair to a reasonably loud room filling volume. This room is about 450 sq. ft.

With the PrimaLuna Prologue Five, we were able to sustain sound levels of 100dB with full dynamics.

For a more vintage sound, the Scott 222C will put out about 22-WPC, with tubes in the EL84 family, which last a long time and are inexpensive. I had only a small time using this integrated amp, due to one channel going out. I just got it back and I am looking forward to hooking it up, in place of the PrimaLuna, as a comparison.

As pointed out, most modern day pro-sound speakers are basically without soul. You really need to go the real vintage stuff like the Altec's or the super vintage, Western Electric stuff. This WE stuff is rare, large and very expensive. So Altec's in one form or another, or DIY designs, based on the Altec designs are a better bet.

Even the vintage stuff, that can be successfully used in a home environment, must be modified and operated with the correct equipment, for successful adaptation.

Realize, that success in the home, means to recreate a commercial venue in your home. Done correctly, I can do this with the A7's. I'm sure that there are other solutions out there, possibly along the same lines of thinking.

I Dreamed a Dream from Les Miserables (the 25th anniversary all star cast, recorded at the O2 in London), is the single, most dramatic song that I have ever played through the A7's. It sounds like you are there.

Try as you might, you will never accomplish this, with even excellent home speakers.

Ntotar, just thought of something, tiki related.

The biggest gathering of people who are into tiki culture have an annual event, which is not anchored in Fort Lauderdale, due to the proximity to the Mai-Kai (their version of Mecca).

I looked it up for this year. The event is known as the Hukailu (2017) is being held here next month, between June 7th - June 10th at the Hyatt Regency Pier 66 on the 17th street causeway. If you are going to do the tiki thing, this IS the place to go and experience others who are into the tiki culture thing.

I'll get you hooked up at my motel, if you wish. If you are interested, please PM me.

S&G

 

"Sounds" great but I won't be able to make that date. Perhaps next year. On top of that I have committed to stop drinking alcohol. Given time I know I'll still be able to enjoy the ambiance and party without the booze. I hope you have a great time. -Rick

 

Actually, the tropical drinks do taste pretty good without the booze, but, I am finding, that, as I get older, the sugar really gets to me. I never seemed to notice it in my younger years.

When you build your tiki bar, be sure to pay close attention to the detail in the middle photo of my first tiki related post.

You get the "details" down, like in the photo, none of your guests will miss the booze.

 

I should say committed to drinking less alcohol.

 

the more I look at modern high end studio solution which most of them are active loudspeakers, the more I find them overpriced.

Geithain, Kii Three, ATC SCM 100 are speakers that would be end game, but alas they are bit too pricey.
there seem to be a real gap in the under 10k studio active speaker realm and therefore Ill take Passive speakers+ standalone amps every time.

 

There are solid reasons to go with either route. I can understand that with an active approach, the manufacturer can match the amplification to the speaker. But this would be best accomplished if a matched preamp was included in the solution, which would likely be outside of the pro audio realm and would need to be suited for the home market.

It could still be accomplished with the use of pro-audio components.

I agree with the use of separate components. It allows more flexibility to tailor your sound signature as using pro equipment in a home environment successfully, involves substantial modifications.

It is also the only way to make things somewhat affordable. Good quality anything is never cheap, but what I am hearing as I write this, makes my investment totally worth while. And, it took a lot off effort to get here. The piano music that is playing now is strong but incredibly fluid and real. That is something that is real difficult to achieve with pro-audio speakers. They usually sound like there is someone like me pounding hard on a piano.

 

Plenty of options out there under £10k. Plenty. And you're comparing apples with oranges with high end studio gear vis a domestic home application.

I currently use Quad 9as actives that combine speakers, DAC and preamp. They're excellent, cost way less than £1000 at full price and are a very neat solution for my needs.

The actives I've heard (Acoustic Energy, Yamaha, Genelec, Mackie and others) have sounded excellent. The AEs were astounding abs they came in at £900 a pair. Nothing in separates came close for the money.

 

yes plenty of options
none that beat the best under 10k passive + amps.


AE, Yamaha... Im talking about end game speakers high end level here, not mid fi.

 

You maybe need to check what Yamaha do...

In any case, "end game" is surely the sound quality? And THAT isn't determined by cost. In any case, the higher up the cost chain you go, you end up going into design statement stuff add much as docs quality. See the new dcs Vivaldi One for reference (£55,000 to you).

Being blinkered to good design though, well, that's not a loss I'd want to take up on when you're more interested in big ticket pricing first and foremost. You simply wouldn't have made the statement you did otherwise.

 

yes, end game to me means fullrange (or almost) high end loudspeakers.

I have heard a lot of under 10k active speakers and imo, none compete with the best passive speakers at the same price. this is my experience.
im curious how many active speaker YOU have heard actually. AE to me are not high end

not sure why you think im interested in big ticket pricing. this is very poor assumption on your part and absolutely not true.

 

To deal with your last comment first, high end usually goes hand in hand with high price. Design statement stuff by a boutique brand is all well and good but I tend to look at high quality audio over high end. There are just too many other unwanted variables otherwise.

I've heard plenty of actives and plenty of passive speakers. The delightful thing was you didn't need to spend ridiculous sums to better passives. By the time you get to Event Opals or the higher Genelec models it's game over.

I mentioned the Acoustic Energy AE22 actives as I owned a pair and so am very familiar with them. Whether you think they're not up to it or not isn't my worry, but suffice to say they licked the competition without too much effort.

No idea what you've listened to under ten thousand but your statement doesn't stack up. Either that or you're kidding yourself.

 

what a bunch of assumptions about me.
high end to me simply means hi fidelity.
hi fidelity isnt necessary super expensive, thats ignorant and not true at all.

yes, high end genelec are very good. my dad have a pair of genelec 3 way but they cost over 10k.

event opals is not hi end: they are good, but I talked to a guy who much preffered jbl lsr6332 over them and having owned the jbl, that tells me Event are not end game in refinement, bass definition and treble.
genelec 8351 for example is not necessarly better then other passive studio options which are much cheaper yet bring the same level of fidelity... ie: amphion. so I stand by my guns, studio active speakers are, for the most part, overpriced.

 

I agree with you for the most part, but I think that its not due to vintage, but simply by the simple fact that for believable dynamics, a big woofer is necessary.

Altec stuff, Tannoy, ect all share the same capabilities and its due to using big and excellent 15 inch woofers, excellent compression drivers, ECT

no replacement for displacement.

the fullrange active loudspeakers using a big woofer like ATC SCM100 or Geithain rl901k which use 12 or 15 inch are very very expensive. having lived with very big speakers, imo nothing can replace big woofers and in the modern world, big 3 way active loudspeakers cost a fortune.

sure, you can have excellent 2 ways but they just dont cut it if you want a live experience and a big presentation and LOUD.

 

No it doesn't have to be vintage, per-say, it is just that the vintage speakers are built like you say, they have big boxes and depend on the physics of sound reproduction.

In the home, I think passive crossovers are more natural sounding. I have an electronic crossover in an audio rack behind the TV, but I never use it on the A7's, which have been modified with passive crossovers and are now a 3-way system. Bass from the A7's 828 cabinets is so natural sounding. For that same reason, I use a large, passive commercial sub. It also has a large 15" speaker in a large cabinet for natural sounding sub-bass.

Yes, there is, no replacement for displacement.

The added benefit is increased efficiency, together they add up to a more improved natural, lifelike sound.

Now, you can successfully power them with nice lower power tube amplifiers, instead of large SS amps.

The SQ further improves...

 

Your post tells me all I need to know about your level of awareness on the matter and which is why I needn't further this particular dialogue. Time better invested elsewhere.

 

WE is worshipped (and I mean, worshipped, in the true and correct sense of the term) in Japan because of the role W. Edwards Deming and his quality control and business theories played in the industrial development of postwar Japan. Other Asian nations have adopted this as well because Japan is seen as the style and taste leader in such matters, in the way Italian car body design and German mechanicals are the leaders in Europe.

WE ERPI and other WE audio equipment (units like the 124 were made by WE long after the ERPI divestiture: they were used in thousands of Bell PBX/intercom/PA installs in plants and for applications in telco COs ) was never sought after by US audiophiles until after the Japanese obsession with them was made known to one and all. The reason was simple: they were not high fidelity. They didn't meet the basic specs for bandwidth and distortion that were established after the war and codified by the Institute for High Fidelity and enforvced, in better days, by the FTC.

It is worth noting that Langevin made a 124 clone for years and sold them for talkback and other studio uses: they used a commercial transformer instead of the WE one, but were otherwise a clone.

The WE units WERE remarkably durable and trouble free for their time. Sonically they were nothing special, or at least, no one thought so that I ever came across in many years of being involved in pro and consumer audio until everyone found out the Japanese obsession for them. And I can pinpoint the date exactly: it was when Alan Douglas wrote an article called "Tubes in Japan" that ran in Ed Dell's magazine some time in the very late 1980s, perhaps 1990. If anyone wants to dispute this, I ask someone to show me where in print one word of this was mentioned in any high end audio, pro audio or similar journal. Aside from discreet classified ads from people wanting to buy the stuff in mainline audio magazines, there wasn't a peep about it anywhere. Even the crazy faction like Gizmo Rosenberg-who wrote a book on OTL tube amplifiers using very high feedback around 1984-mentioned esoterica like the McIntosh MI200 and the rein Narma designed Gotham Audio cutting head amp, but nary a word about anything WE ERPI. I have the book and it doesn't.